10daytroll wrote: it is really sad that the producers of this game cannot have a discussion about the game and what makes it work. then they might better understand the true players, not the statistically generated "average player" there are alot of very intelligant people in these forums and in this game who would love to hear about game design theory. i think this game is very different from other games and it has an audience that cannot be easily classified as one group or another. i believe this game is on life support and even if it gains subscribers and ends up with more than pre-cu will be a failure. not because it isnt a financial success, or a success in business terms, but it destreoyed a game that was more than a game to so many to build it.
OMFG! Did you seriously type that with a straight face? Omg if this thread gets any funnier, I'm going to be sick to my stomach.
Have a discussion with NGE haters. Oh man, I need a breather. That's freaking funny.
I love the NGE, but I miss my cats Bring back the Creature Handler (an Iconic class should be easy!)
JFreeman wrote: The community guys are going to come into my office and poke me in the eye if I participate in a philosophical design discussion on these forums.
TH is already on its way! With a knife ... a big one. RUN FORREST RUN!!!
10daytroll wrote: i think this game is very different from other games and it has an audience that cannot be easily classified as one group or another.
JFreeman wrote: I don't speak about SWG on my blog. I may speak about game design in general, or high level design concept sorts of things that aren't appropriate for discussion here. But to speak about SWG specifically: well I'd do that on these forums.
Certainly when I was a younger man, I was willing to devote a great deal of time to mastering arcane rules just to be able to play a game. But those days are long gone. SWG needed to be a lot more accessible. It also needed to be a lot more maintainable.
SWG needs depth and complexity too, but it can't be the thing that greets new players at the door. That complexity needs to be built on a solid foundation; and the game itself needed to be easier to get into and more directed.
And that is why you'll NEVER design a GREAT game. Simplicity is not the answer. You talk about the D&D rules in your Blog. Me and my friends learned the rules at age 10 (I'm 35 now and still play PnP rpgs with co-workers). We chose it FOR it's complexity. It had rules for everything you could imagine. Yes, we all had ALL 50 of the books and soaked up EVERY rule there was because COMPLEXITY IS FUN. When they went to the 3.0(3.5) rules we all quit because that detail was lost.
Another example: I used to play WarHammer 40k and EPIC. The detail of the games were amazing. Every troop had its own stats and lent themselves to tactics in different ways. Then Citadel went and dumbed down the rule to make it Younger and New Player friendly. All troop were generalized. There was no more real tactics to the game. I know of 14 people alone that quit the games because of the rule changes. To this day Citadel has NEVER recovered the profits for those two games like they had before the rule changes.
Yes, I'm a deep fan of complexity. Complexity is individuality. Complexity is interesting. Complexity is challenging. It's sad, JF, that you dislike complexity ( "those days are long gone" ), but don't assume the rest of the thinking world would like things spoon fed to them just because you do.
Message Edited by Schadwe13 on 02-09-200601:48 PM
======================================= Schadwe "The shadows only move if there is something in the light."
Vendor: StormTech Aerospace Inc Swoop Territory, Naboo (-5620, 3000). Just outside of Theed.
JFreeman wrote: The community guys are going to come into my office and poke me in the eye if I participate in a philosophical design discussion on these forums.
Why? What is wrong with this discussion, could it end up showing that the game was better pre-NGE, and if so, why is that a bad thing? Maybe the NGE was a mistake. Maybe this discussion will finally show it wasn't. So keep talking and lets see where it goes.
"There is no emotion, there is peace; There is no ignorance, there is knowledge; There is no passion, there is serenity; there is no choas, there is order;There is no death, there is the Force" from the Jedi code.
JFreeman wrote: The community guys are going to come into my office and poke me in the eye if I participate in a philosophical design discussion on these forums.
That may be, but if you and other devs where more willing to post (as we are hungry for communication), you would find the ill will of the current players would subside greatly.
Qwad wrote: Dew come play EVE with Yrzirzad and I... so far from what I've seen it's VERY complex
Heck with that, not paying for anymore games per month, I will be playing Empire at War when it comes out. It seems some what complex tho.... hope I can learn it LOL
JFreeman wrote: I don't speak about SWG on my blog. I may speak about game design in general, or high level design concept sorts of things that aren't appropriate for discussion here. But to speak about SWG specifically: well I'd do that on these forums.
Certainly when I was a younger man, I was willing to devote a great deal of time to mastering arcane rules just to be able to play a game. But those days are long gone. SWG needed to be a lot more accessible. It also needed to be a lot more maintainable.
SWG needs depth and complexity too, but it can't be the thing that greets new players at the door. That complexity needs to be built on a solid foundation; and the game itself needed to be easier to get into and more directed.
And that is why you'll NEVER design a GREAT game. Simplicity is not the answer. You talk about the D&D rules in your Blog. Me and my friends learned the rules at age 10 (I'm 35 now and still play PnP rpgs with co-workers). We chose it FOR it's complexity. It had rules for everything you could imagine. Yes, we all had ALL 50 of the books and soaked up EVERY rule there was because COMPLEXITY IS FUN. When they went to the 3.0(3.5) rules we all quit because that detail was lost.
Another example: I used to play WarHammer 40k and EPIC. The detail of the games were amazing. Every troop had its own stats and lent themselves to tactics in different ways. Then Citadel went and dumbed down the rule to make it Younger and New Player friendly. All troop were generalized. There was no more real tactics to the game. I know of 14 people alone that quit the games because of the rule changes. To this day Citadel has NEVER recovered the profits for those two games like they had before the rule changes.
Yes, I'm a deep fan of complexity. Complexity is individuality. Complexity is interesting. Complexity is challenging. It's sad, JF, that you dislike complexity ( "those days are long gone" ), but don't assume the rest of the thinking world would like things spoon fed to them just because you do.
Message Edited by Schadwe13 on 02-09-200601:48 PM
It's funny, bescause many games start out complex and becmoe successful because of it. Then they dumb it down (more for the greed to get more subs) and lose everything. Will we be here in year...who knows, but not with the idiocy that we are being subjected to.
Heck with that, not paying for anymore games per month, I will be playing Empire at War when it comes out. It seems some what complex tho.... hope I can learn it LOL
It's not remotely complex. But it's a lot of fun.
I love the NGE, but I miss my cats Bring back the Creature Handler (an Iconic class should be easy!)
10daytroll wrote: it is really sad that the producers of this game cannot have a discussion about the game and what makes it work. then they might better understand the true players, not the statistically generated "average player" there are alot of very intelligant people in these forums and in this game who would love to hear about game design theory. i think this game is very different from other games and it has an audience that cannot be easily classified as one group or another. i believe this game is on life support and even if it gains subscribers and ends up with more than pre-cu will be a failure. not because it isnt a financial success, or a success in business terms, but it destreoyed a game that was more than a game to so many to build it.
OMFG! Did you seriously type that with a straight face? Omg if this thread gets any funnier, I'm going to be sick to my stomach.
Have a discussion with NGE haters. Oh man, I need a breather. That's freaking funny.
pick up a book on psychology sometimes, if you learn how people react in certain situations you will be more likely to understand them. when people are very upset they tend to voice their opinion an concisely and as simple as possible which leads to it not being well thought out. if you are allowed and willing to participate in a serious conversation you will get a more well thought out answer and in most cases a legitiamte conversation. for instance i am a NGE hater and i have had several conversations about it. what is the excuse for your well stated comment above?
JFreeman wrote: The community guys are going to come into my office and poke me in the eye if I participate in a philosophical design discussion on these forums.
That may be, but if you and other devs where more willing to post (as we are hungry for communication), you would find the ill will of the current players would subside greatly.
Mmm. Break the ice, so to speak.
they know this. their hands are tied.
Yeah, it sucks. What are their alternatives? Close the game or communicat more? I would have thought it was a easy choice, but guess not.
JFreeman wrote: The community guys are going to come into my office and poke me in the eye if I participate in a philosophical design discussion on these forums.
ROFL.. that Actually made me LOL in RL then.. I felt silly too cos ppl could hear
- I support a rollback and keeping & balancing the old combat system. ...and making SWG a better place to be. Your voice counts!
JFreeman wrote: The community guys are going to come into my office and poke me in the eye if I participate in a philosophical design discussion on these forums.
That may be, but if you and other devs where more willing to post (as we are hungry for communication), you would find the ill will of the current players would subside greatly.
Mmm. Break the ice, so to speak.
they know this. their hands are tied.
Yeah, it sucks. What are their alternatives? Close the game or communicat more? I would have thought it was a easy choice, but guess not.
If I e-mail Gabe Newell at VALVe with a question about Half-Life 2 (a sensible one), I'll get a reply, even if it is a reply with absolutely no details, it will still be a reply.
I don't even have an e-mail address for anyone at SOE.
I can understand why they wouldn't want to get caught up on flame wars on here, but now and then some of us have really constructive questions, and they get bogged down with ten pages of replies telling us how SOE won't reply or SOE doesn't care or NGE sucks (usually completely off-topic, but hey, lets throw in a few for good measure). It would be nice to get replies for the really good questions.
______________________________________
I support turning on maintenance and letting condition zero houses be packed up or destroyed. __________
JFreeman wrote: I don't speak about SWG on my blog. I may speak about game design in general, or high level design concept sorts of things that aren't appropriate for discussion here. But to speak about SWG specifically: well I'd do that on these forums.
Certainly when I was a younger man, I was willing to devote a great deal of time to mastering arcane rules just to be able to play a game. But those days are long gone. SWG needed to be a lot more accessible. It also needed to be a lot more maintainable.
SWG needs depth and complexity too, but it can't be the thing that greets new players at the door. That complexity needs to be built on a solid foundation; and the game itself needed to be easier to get into and more directed.
Funny...SWG was the very first MMO i have ever played, and you know what got me hooked? the complexity. It was refreshing to play a game that was so complexed, i really enjoyed it. And really i did not find it to hard to figure out, and the things i didnt understand, i asked players, and they told me.
what you have done is essentially removed a solid base built on rock, and re-placed it with a base built on clay.
, still miss the old SWG, but this NGE is for the birds.
