SWGEmu - 1.0 and the future of JTL

[Vlada]

Just so this doesn't get buried under a mountain of garbage from other sections, it would be such a bother to reply to these questions over and over again. So one more time, for you reading pleasure:

The JTL issue is it was written by a totally different team and the mechanics of the engine and the way game play worked was completely different than the ground game.

Unless someone who is passionate AND very skilled in tick based 3d space games steps up to work on it then we will waiting for JTL until the end of time...

Sorry, that is the brutal truth.

There's been a fair amount of JTL work done, but it's largely stuff like ships and many of the various portions that interact with the client. It's pretty functional as a single player space crafting game with flying and no enemies. The back end that actually handles large scale multiplayer movement/projectiles/etc in a 3d space environment is the mountain of a hurdle that has to be resolved.

We did a lot of investigation, I don't want people think we just threw our hands up, a couple devs (I won't name names) beat their brains out on it for months and made some progress here and there. But as we started to dig in deeper some of these things really smashed our hopes and dreams:

1. JTL is a space game, the ground game is not really 3d, so we need different spatial indexing tech
2. In space, projectiles "tick" (they move in a direction with a velocity) and they collide with another object, on the ground you can't dodge a rifle shot, in space you can dodge a missile.
3. Since the game was written by different devs, some subtle things are different like the coordinate system is not the same as the ground game (i.e. x/z/y etc.)
4. core3 was not designed for "ticks", we might be able to hack it in but it would be a nightmare
5. In space nobody can hear you scream!!!!

Now all this said, it CAN be done, its a lot more work than any of the current devs can afford to dedicate.

I personally lack the drive/interest/passion to make the space game work. It was "ok" to me but never inspired me, I'm a MMO guy not a FPS'er or 3d Space kind of player.

I would be happy to see a new "SIG" (Special Interest Group) form around JTL in the swgemu community, if we can find a couple talented and passionate devs who would like to leverage our CI/CD pipelines, test hosting etc then I'd be more than happy help and support.

No matter what happens we are progressing towards 1.0, just at this point we do not see a path that includes full JTL emulation for it.

We will hit the 1.0 milestone (no dates yet) and then launch a new server that will include on-going content expansion and other things the "new" server community will be passionate about.

We have numerous ideas in this direction, and for me personally this is more interesting than waiting 5 more years while we try to reverse engineer more of JTL.

Thanks for the additional info. I'm guessing you didn't expect to get ambushed like you did!

Nobody twisted my arm, I have wanted for some time to discuss this, it just felt right to do it now. The hardest part about great product management is saying "No" and the second hardest part is explaining why. I am a product manager by trade, I deal with this in real life everyday, and here I felt it was time to just open it up and be blunt about the situation.

I think what you suggest makes a lot of sense and I think pretty much everyone here would agree with the path we're on toward 1.0 & Suncrusher sooner rather than later. I doubt there are THAT many players who are idling away on the ground game simply waiting for JTL. We're all here and play regularly because we love SWG. JTL would be a nice addition (I loved it on Live) but it's not the be-all end-all of the game.

I don't totally agree, we know MANY players who wanted JTL which is why this discussion is so difficult. In the end we really want people to be happy, to enjoy the version of the game we enjoyed, but you don't always get what you want, hopefully you get what you need! :-)

Starting a JTL SIG sounds like a great idea and would possibly allow some brainstorming without sidetracking the devs working on the ground game.

For the right team, I'm happy to dedicate my time to devops support, some space on the community site, some test server containers and cpu etc. But to be clear, they need to convince the dev team they might have a reasonable chance of pulling it off. We don't need to get people's hopes up and then crash them on the rocks again.

Since as you mention it might require hacks of core3 would it need to be a completely separate game engine? I'm curious how Lucas Arts/SOE did it back in the day. I'm wondering how a game engine like Unity might work. Of course then there's licensing costs, etc.

Its unclear what the final design might look like, we have considered a second engine with a bridge between them to make it seamless for the player to come in and out of the ground game.

Look on the bright side (or don't, it doesn't really matter at this point), without JTL, 1.0 is much, much, MUCH closer now.


Hugs and kisses,
Vlada

[jackasmacka]

Thanks Vlada.

Looks like the team is unified, I always considered JTL to be a different game overall and I am happy to see the scope of the project updated.

[oMek]

JTL is dead RIP, can we at least get instant planet travel that came along with it?

[Lokro]

JTL is dead RIP, can we at least get instant planet travel that came along with it?

This would be great , Thanks for all the hard work you guys do already and continue to do.

[makednoce]

Is planetary flight unavailable as well?

[AL3XG]

Whats the status on SunCrusher?

[wolverine971]

Is planetary flight unavailable as well?

planetary was never even in the game until right before SWG Shut down. think the devs thought "wtf why not"

[jamieh909]

Thanks for the update

[lordkator]

JTL is dead RIP, can we at least get instant planet travel that came along with it?

Is planetary flight unavailable as well?

-- Copying my response to the JTL thread in the Developer forums --

I am just asking this because I simply do not understand what JTL actually entails and takes to make work here on swgemu. However I believe there are other servers that have JTL up and running. I am just wondering how were they able to get this done with out it previously being done here. Though it might not be a pre-cu server that I was told JTL is working on. I imagine if it wasn't a pre-cu server that the JTL there is very different from what we would need here?

We are aware of some servers that claim to have JTL, but we're not aware of any that have the pre-CU game, fully functioning. That said some have used stolen source code to get the NGE experience going, we refuse to use the stolen code, we prefer to keep with our original direction of developing code from scratch.

Also a few questions I would like to ask if you guys do not mind.

1. Can you access a ship and go into space via the terminals at the spaceports?

Yes, but collision is not working well so you can't fight or fly to places without just running through everything.

2. While in space are you able to leave the cockpit and go into the ships that have a living quarters attached to them?

Spaceships are houses, so navigating the interiors is not a big challenge.

3. While in space do you see other players? Just not enemies?

You can see them on the mini-map, and to some extent outside the windows, but again without collision its not a great experience.

4. Is there any chance of giving ship access simply to avoid the starport run around, like having to go to Corellia instead of going from say Tatootine straight to Yavin IV?

Yes it is possible.

5. If these things are not yet possible, would they be possible with extra dev support ( A new dev willing to donate time to make just these things work)?

Many more things are possible with extra developer support, again this isn't use throwing our hands up, we've spent many months digging in and found the challenges to be more than we can address in a timely manner.

I feel these are questions that many will now wonder about, and if we can get some clarification on if these things would even be possible with out the entirety of JTL being done would be fantastic.

Thanks for all the hard work and time you've all donated to this project to bring back this amazing game for us.

Thanks for the questions and recognizing that we're doing our best to keep the game alive.

[lordkator]

To be clear, we are not certain what if anything from JTL will be included in 1.0, we have debated some features being included (travel, space crafting). But this opens up another dialog about "not a pre-CU" experience, plus dealing with 100's of bug reports "Hey my ship doesn't move" will become a big distraction for the team.

We see SWGEmu 1.0 (pre-CU) as a milestone in the code base, where it makes sense we will back-port changes to pre-CU (bug fixes, stability, JTL etc.).

Mainly we want to get to a point where vanilla pre-CU experience is available (short of JTL) and then open up to new ideas for future SWGEmu official server(s).

We won't block others from running from the pre-CU code base, but we also don't want to be constrained by the pre-CU goal going forward.

If over time JTL comes out against the pre-CU milestone (SWGEmu 1.0) then that might become part of future server(s) as an expansion release.

Most importantly don't sit on the sidelines waiting for a wipe, short of a miracle it is a long ways off.

When big changes are on the horizon we will talk about it well in advance and make sure everyone is clear on whats happening when.

We will communicate in-game as well as on the forums, it will be well known to all active players in the community.

FYI I am recruiting for JTL SIG, no promises, but I will take time to see if we can find the right people for the job: Call for Developers: JTL SIG

[HannahBananah]

To be clear, we are not certain what if anything from JTL will be included in 1.0, we have debated some features being included (travel, space crafting). But this opens up another dialog about "not a pre-CU" experience, plus dealing with 100's of bug reports "Hey my ship doesn't move" will become a big distraction for the team.

We see SWGEmu 1.0 (pre-CU) as a milestone in the code base, where it makes sense we will back-port changes to pre-CU (bug fixes, stability, JTL etc.).

Mainly we want to get to a point where vanilla pre-CU experience is available (short of JTL) and then open up to new ideas for future SWGEmu official server(s).

We won't block others from running from the pre-CU code base, but we also don't want to be constrained by the pre-CU goal going forward.

If over time JTL comes out against the pre-CU milestone (SWGEmu 1.0) then that might become part of future server(s) as an expansion release.

Most importantly don't sit on the sidelines waiting for a wipe, short of a miracle it is a long ways off.

When big changes are on the horizon we will talk about it well in advance and make sure everyone is clear on whats happening when.

We will communicate in-game as well as on the forums, it will be well known to all active players in the community.

I am about 4 months into my experience in swgemu, should I bother starting the Jedi grind now? Or is it pointless at this point?

Just asking because pouring 6 months into something just to rinse and repeat on a new server sounds daunting!!

The prospect of 1.0 is exciting though! Just feel like I was too late to the party 😔

[Lolindir]

You will not see SunCrusher this year...

[Walking carpet]

Ok now we know the staff cannot deal with JTL cause of Core3 mainly not designed to support a 3d FPS collidable environment, lack of experience in that field and the urge to launch Suncrusher I understand but is there an active search going to find developers that can make it happen??
We have lots of power as a community , we have Mobyus1 viewers, we have the interwebs we have Ralph Koster that keeping an eye on SWGEmu development he knows the devs of JTL and im pretty sure he would try at least connecting with the right people or giving you clues as to how to proceed even if hes got hes hand tied contractually , im sure if we advertise clearly whats needed ,how they could get rewarded if theres no salary, the basic request posted for hiring we would find someone.

Other servers have JTL parts , you say they stole it from where ?
cant you guys check there codes?

SWGEmu 1.0 is not 14,1 compliant upon release like advertised it will be seen as a fail by many, I hate to see that happen after all the hard work you put in

[lordkator]

Ok now we know the staff cannot deal with JTL cause of Core3 mainly not designed to support a 3d FPS collidable environment, lack of experience in that field and the urge to launch...

I would appreciate if people read slowly what I write here, I take time, think about my words, and work to be very specific.

Never once did I mention "lack of experience in that field" being a blocker, we have many senior developers, I personally have written code since 1981. I've written code for missile defense systems, accounting systems all all sorts of stuff, but I am not passionate enough to spend the next 5 years with my wife looking at the back of my head while I code our way out of JTL.

Please be very careful when you insult our development team, we're all volunteers, many of us PAID professionally for our work and come here in our spare time to contribute.

... I understand but is there an active search going to find developers that can make it happen??

That's what we're discussing right now, if your C++ experience is strong enough please apply and let's get cracking!

We have lots of power as a community , we have Mobyus1 viewers, we have the interwebs we have Ralph Koster that keeping an eye on SWGEmu development he knows the devs of JTL and im pretty sure he would try at least connecting with the right people or giving you clues as to how to proceed even if hes got hes hand tied contractually , im sure if we advertise clearly whats needed ,how they could get rewarded if theres no salary, the basic request posted for hiring we would find someone.

Everytime I go to the super market and put food in my shopping cart the little girl at the door makes me pay for it! It's horrific but as long as she keeps doing that most people will need to be paid to work. We've spoken to Raph, and all the people he knows are getting paid for work.

Meanwhile you're asking people who worked on this system, 15 years ago, to remember the code, violate thier contracts and tell us how to write it? If only it were that easy! Have you looked at our code base? It's 519,074 lines of code, on a standard 8.5" x 11" paper that's a 7,864 page book! Imagine if JTL were even just 1/2 as complicated! Before you jump to conclusions it would be great if you sat and thought through the scale of what you're saying. Even if we had $3m of cash it would take a good sized team of devs at least 2 years to re-build JTL from scratch. If we raised that kind of money and started hiring developers and provided them with offices, health care and all the other things needed, well we'd be out of a job on day three because the rights holders to Star Wars would rightfully shut us down.

Other servers have JTL parts , you say they stole it from where ?
cant you guys check there codes?

You know where, don't play coy, and it's illegal code, we won't use it, we have no reason to upset the righful owners of copyrighted materials.

SWGEmu 1.0 is not 14,1 compliant upon release like advertised it will be seen as a fail by many, I hate to see that happen after all the hard work you put in

If the community considers 519,074 lines of code with 13,368 commits across 15 years a total failure then I will be shocked. You can play most of this game now, Basilisk has been on-line nearly longer than the entire game itself! If that's failure, I'd love to see your definition of success.

I get that this upsetting to some of the more passionate members of our community. I prefer transparency, even when it's not convenient. So there you have it. Read slowly. Think before you type. And let's figure out what's next.

Here's a little stat for you, almost 1,000 unique accounts have played Basilisk this month and only 105 people actually donate monthly (85 as subscriptions).

When people flip out about this effort like they own it, I'm shocked, because only 1 in 10 people DONATE any effort towards the game's progress.

But they sure are happy to jump up and down when something doesn't go their way. Before you reply, think on that, I personally have donated 4,850 USD to this project and massive hours. Others have donated 10x as much in raw time. Exactly how are we all failing you?

What are you doing to move the project forward?

[david665]

Walking Carpet wrote "We have Ralph Koster that keeping an eye on SWGEmu development he knows the devs of JTL and im pretty sure he would try at least connecting with the right people or giving you clues as to how to proceed even if hes got hes hand tied contractually."
I absolutely don't see this happening. Koster has probably moved on, as he should have. Being aware of a project is quite different in being interested in it or supportive of it. As I understand it, Koster was burned bad by his time on SWG. SOE threw him under the bus as soon as it was convenient for them to do so, just like they did to the playerbase at the time to chase new subs, which never came.