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Re: Focus Thread: Loot Versus Craftables
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lisasdarren
Wing Commander
Posts: 540
Registered: 02-18-2004


lisasdarren
PA: Mortis Insurrectum
Server: Wanderhome

Reply 76 of 130

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TalonKarrdeTN wrote:

 Loot itself is way too plentiful to have it be better than crafted a majority of the time.  The end result of RE'ing however especially on the high end of the spectrum won't be nearly so plentiful as to cut the shipwright profession down at the knees.


Loot isn't better than crafted the majority of the time, the only situation for which this is true is with capacitors, YPR on engines (crafted engines win on speed) and energy use / energy on boosters (again crafted win on speed and match on acceleration)

With everything else crafted out performs looted 99.9% of the time, so you do have a balanced situation with the exception of the fact that crafted capacitors are never any good under any circumstances, or so I am told.

Isn't this a balanced situation? I certainly feel that it is (with the noted capacitor exception).


Trax Treort - Rifleman, Fencer & Imperial Pilot
11-30-2004 10:30 AM  

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Re: Focus Thread: Loot Versus Craftables
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S-1-l2-H-C
Wing Commander
Posts: 1643
Registered: 11-04-2004


S-1-l2-H-C

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my whole take on this is that crafted parts should be better than the vast majority of loot, but there should be the chance of finding and RE'ing something truly elite.

to this end, they should make crafted parts BETTER, not make looted parts WORSE. that would give everyone the feeling of progress, instead of feeling like they just took a huge step backwards. it would also give us pilots that have decent loot already a reason to upgrade to crafted parts and jump start the shipwright econonmy.

____________________________
Starsider:
Harotak, Imperial Ace, pilot of the RGI "No Quarter" and the "ISS Enforcer"
Katorah, Corsec Security forces, Captian of "The Unrelenting
Harotak', Rebel Terrorist
11-30-2004 01:12 PM  

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Re: Focus Thread: Loot Versus Craftables
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Fuss
Jedi
Posts: 1262
Registered: 09-06-2003


Fuss

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I have a cert 2 looted capacitor that I RE'd that has 900+ energy and 47 recharge rate.  I also have a ton of cert 6+ that no shipwright could even get close too.
 
Defintly think the capacitors are a bit screwed up.  Would rather see shipwrights get an increase to what they can make instead of a decrease in the loot drops though.
 
Fuss Bango (Chilastra)
Master Shipwright/Pilot/Artisan/Merchant/Fisherman

SPACE PVP 000 DEEP SPACE

Fuss Bango (IA) Imperial Ace Pilot/Elder Shipwright Chilastra

Hord (INQ-14) Privateer Ace Pilot Kettemoor
11-30-2004 02:24 PM  

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Re: Focus Thread: Loot Versus Craftables
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Jacquelyn
SWG Chief Petty Officer
Posts: 234
Registered: 10-29-2003



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For the sake of SWG and my own fun, I am so afraid that some players are going to have the game ruined so that a few mass producers can make it rich at the expense of the majority of the player base. I know right now that some shipwrights are complaining about the quality of looted components and want to have them changed. Additionally they are complaining about players selling loot to the chassis vendors and about how much they get for the loot.

I think we should be very careful what we asked in terms of comparing crafted items with loot items. Much loot is not as good as crafted stuff, but there are drops that are a bit better at least in one category such as top speed, ypr, etc (for engines)

In my opinion every class of loot should have some drops in a single stat which is better than what a crafter could possibly make. If crafters can make everything better than loot, then we will essentially be nullifying the purpose of reverse engineering and loot will become relatively worthless.

I say this as someone who is almost master pilot and who is also shipwright. I am doing SW to make missiles and bombs for my guild, as well as the fun of RE-ING loot to make really specialized components.

For example, I have a level 8 engine with very Low mass. I have another level 8 engine with great speed but poor ypr. I still have another level 8 with great ypr but not as much speed as #2 and greater mass than #1. Now I am trying to see what I can find that has as little energy drain as I can get.

So, for me, being a shipwright will not be about mass-producing items, it will be about making bombs and missiles (ammunition) and chaff for the end game. I also want to create highly specialized components through RE.

I want to make an analogy to weaponssmith. What if every weaponssmith suddenly determined that kryat weapons were superior to what we could craft out of the box, that they petitioned to have "out of the box" weapons as powerful as kryat ones? That would destroy the game for the weaponsmiths who specialized in high end weapons. It would also ruin the fun for high end loot hunters and PVPers. Why? Just so that the mass producers could control the high end market niche, not via effort in game but through politics outside the game (in the forums).

Secondly, as a pilot/shipwright the loot prices that the chassis dealer pays makes the game much more fun for everyone who is not a shipwright. If they severely nerfed payouts for space loot it would take the game back to what it was for me before JTL. A boring, never-ending grind which is not worth playing. (hence I was gone for 6 months) I have am having allott of fun with many aspects of JTL the way it is now and this includes PVP. I am actually using my pilot to pay for my shipwright grind. I plan to be small time but highly specialized. My gameplay is designed to work within the system, not change it.

Unfortunately the people who are out playing the game and are enjoying it generally won't be here on the boards or more noteably in the shipwright forums to stand up for themselves. This leaves many people vulnerable to the more political minded who have the intelligence and persuasiveness to convince the developers to change the gameplay to favor them, at the expense of the great majority. So all I am asking is please be very careful what you ask for. Chances are you will get it because you are more vocal and in the process you could very well ruin the game for many people who are having a ton of fun.

 

 

 

12-03-2004 02:55 PM  

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Re: Focus Thread: Loot Versus Craftables
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Quandry
Jedi
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Quandry
PA: ITEC
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All my parts are loot. Bout the only crafted parts that are close to looted levels are reactors...and those seem a little low power to mass imo.

Another good example of a bad part are boosters. An avrage looted booster is better than a crafted level 2-4 levels higher.

Shields at low levels are better crafted but at higher levels seem a bit low.

Droid controle devices are messed up as loot. The speed goes up when down is better. Crafted these are no good either they are just to slow and way to heavy.

Eng's are still to slow in turning. With good resorces and all experimentation put into speed the default turning and role should be 60 to match nice looted eng's and still wouldent be as good as nice re'd eng's done well.

Weapons you know are better looted. And re'd weapons are way better than crafted. Increasing crafted default damage to shields/ armor to .55 with good resorces default would be nice for the blaster style. And for the ones focusing on armor/shields they should be .8 to the intended and at least .3 but .4 would help compeat with well re'd loot. All the damage should go up a bit but the energy per shot seems decent.

Armor needs to be lighter to match loot.

The way eng's effect ships needs to be changed. Perhaps a seporate mass for eng's and allow the fighters that should be fast 2 lightweight eng slots wile the heavy bomber style have 1 heavyer bay for eng's.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Carbineer for Life
Weapons||Armor
Li'lith of Tarquinas
Alderaan Memorial Hospital
Loot Vendor (-6851 -4108) Galia Naboo

12-04-2004 08:26 PM  

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Re: Focus Thread: Loot Versus Craftables
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Talonsin
Wing Commander
Posts: 941
Registered: 07-10-2003


Talonsin
PA: GORE
Server: Tarquinas

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Dont change the loot at all!  Why is that always the answer people come up with?  If anything changes, change the quality of the crafted items and make them better. 
 
Never take away from us, always look to how you can give us more!  Thats the secret to keeping a gaming community happy.  Put the nerf bat away forever.
12-06-2004 12:59 PM  

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Re: Focus Thread: Loot Versus Craftables
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Jagged-F3l
Jedi
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Jagged-F3l
PA: Remnants of Honor
Server: Chilastra

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Talonsin wrote:
Dont change the loot at all!  Why is that always the answer people come up with?  If anything changes, change the quality of the crafted items and make them better. 
 
Never take away from us, always look to how you can give us more!  Thats the secret to keeping a gaming community happy.  Put the nerf bat away forever.


I only have one thing to say in response to this. Whenever the question of loot has come up in the past, the devs answer has always been that they would never do anything to hurt crafters. In my opinion, looted components smacks right in the face of this philosophy.

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12-06-2004 02:06 PM  

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Re: Focus Thread: Loot Versus Craftables
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S-1-l2-H-C
Wing Commander
Posts: 1643
Registered: 11-04-2004


S-1-l2-H-C

Reply 83 of 130

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you are correct, making loot better than crafted hurts the shipwrights.

the solution to this is to leave loot alone and make crafted BETTER.

the only problem i can see with this is that it might make the game too easy. but thats easy to fix too; make the ai ships more powerful.

____________________________
Starsider:
Harotak, Imperial Ace, pilot of the RGI "No Quarter" and the "ISS Enforcer"
Katorah, Corsec Security forces, Captian of "The Unrelenting
Harotak', Rebel Terrorist
12-06-2004 07:39 PM  

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Re: Focus Thread: Loot Versus Craftables
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TomoRainer
Blue Glowie
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TomoRainer
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The only loot items that are undeniably better than crafted are capacitors. A few things, like boosters and engines, are in some ways better crafted, in some ways better looted (though YPR rates on crafted engines definitely need a bump). Shields might fit into this category, too, though I really haven't seen any non-reward ones that compare to crafted. There's no comparison between crafted armor and looted. As for weapons, the even-numbered ones do tend to have .600-.620 armor/shield effectiveness, but they also have a .400-.440 refire rate with a heavy energy drain--which means their DPS isn't much different from a .352 speed crafted blaster, and they're destroyed by a .265 speed blaster with a speed upgrade. What's left, droid interfaces and reactors? Interfaces seem like a wash, and while I've seen a couple really nice low-level looted reactors, I also sell more reactors than anything else but armor, which suggests the abundance of great looted ones may be overstated.

The point of this summary is to show we aren't exactly in dire straights and any changes to the balance between looted and crafted need to be very carefully considered. The plethora of loot gives pilots cash to buy our stuff, and the chance for a really nice item gives them the incentive to keep flying. I do think we could use some more help, but a real possibility for useful loot gives JTL a lot of staying power, something we shouldn't be eager to screw with.





Smuggling uphill both ways in a Tatooine sandstorm since July '03 | Shipwright to the stars! Help put my virtual kids through college with a new X-Wing today | Ye Olde Pilot Correspondent

12-07-2004 03:25 AM  

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Re: Focus Thread: Loot Versus Craftables
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Ahrwynn
Leader
Posts: 108
Registered: 10-19-2004



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BioBlender wrote:
I dont know I think that it is prety close to being perfect.  I like that there is a chance that Looted parts will be better then SW crafted items.  Thay dont last forever so let people brag that thay have this or that. 


Well, the new patch blew this argument....the higher-up pilots end up doing 90% PvP and now no decay at all.....
 
The uber-loot goodie lives on infinitum....

^ Paxxx ^
Master Shipwright The Ancient Mariner
12-08-2004 02:00 AM  

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Re: Focus Thread: Loot Versus Craftables
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Diorchas
Jedi
Posts: 1823
Registered: 11-11-2003


Diorchas
PA: Ilum Trading, Corell Peaks, Corellia
Server: Kettemoor

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I suggest that crafters be given the opportunity to make a schematic when they RE an item.  Perhaps it could be a limited schematic if unlimited proved to be too imbalancing. 
 
Having something like this would keep the pilots pleased because loot will still be integral to the crafting process (and, ultimately, the final product would be better) and it would also keep the Shipwrights happy because they wouldn't be made irrelevant by uber loot.
 
There are many tweaks possible and various ways to implement it, but I think it would go over well with everyone involved.
12-11-2004 07:46 AM  

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Re: Focus Thread: Loot Versus Craftables
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ikolian
SWG Chief Petty Officer
Posts: 413
Registered: 12-04-2003


ikolian
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Server: Valcyn

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Gah, quite whining. From what I've seen so far, (As a pilot and a SW) crafted is better than the average looted, and RE'd is better than crafted in pretty much all cases except the capacitors and that one 92.x speed reward engine. This seems fair to me; you can't get away with just straight loot, so you buy crafted, and if you're willing to put the time in (or fork out the dough) you can get stuff even better in the form of RE, which shipwrights do for minimal cost and by running a RE selling business you could make some decent profit.
 
Just my 2 cents.

Colonel Eanow Wo'Tah- Valcyn Server
Alliance Ace pilot/Swordsman/Master of almost mastering professions then dropping them
Almost mastered Pikeman/Ranger/Commando/Fencer
12-11-2004 08:13 AM  

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Re: Focus Thread: Loot Versus Craftables   [ Edited ]
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Graxul
Jedi
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Registered: 09-15-2003


Graxul
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keep in mind though that even though looted equipment is better you still have to go through a shipwright in order to make looted items even better than before.  Why don't shipwrights sell more reverse engineered loot on their vendors beyond level 3 or 4.  You could probably charge more for them than player crafted and no resources would be required just time collecting the pieces.  Sheer profit.  There are components in high demand that just aren't being made or get sold out quickly.  Myself I'd buy player made armor more if they sold reinforced armor plating with little to no experiment points in mass.  Such armor is often better and more economical in light or low mass ships than higher level armor that is mass reduced...the mass reduction isn't enough to warrant the decrease in armor.  More higher grade missles such as concussion mark II and III's, spacebomb missles I and II, including the launchers.   
 
The beauty of looted equipment right now is what makes jtl fun atm while the devs try to come up with some real decent content for space.  The players get nice equipment that they can use unlike the looted weapons in the ground game which are utter trash and unfun to get. In order to make looted equipment better a player must go to a shipwright to get it reverse engineered...thus keeping the motto that player made items should be better than loot.  Currently most Shipwrights I know don't charge a set fee or any fee for that matter for reverse engineering looted equipment.  Mainly because they want more items to reverse engineer on the off chance that they may get a schematic part for the firespray and eventually make some at an incredible profit. A set fee for the level of reverse engineered equipment could be something reasonable for the player...much like slicing equipment.  (1000cr )x=set fee...where x=level of items to reverse engineer.  Most of the player base should be able afford such a price setting and little work is involved for you only time and the cost of making component analyzers.  If however you go out and aquire the equipment yourself charge a price well over the price you charge for player made equipment...since the reverse engineered equipment is better.  Only time would be involved and rich players would buy the pre reverse engineered equipment just to save themselves the time and effort of setting up a reverse engineered set themselves.  And once again this would only be a small time investment since there are plenty of spawn areas that drop level 1-8 loot(tier 3 npcs) or if you really want to take some time making the level 9 and 10 equipment and charge a considerable amount more for the reverse engineered item.  Money can be made from reverse engineering you just have to set it up in a way that would be well accepted by the community.

Message Edited by Graxul on 12-13-2004 02:42 AM

Message Edited by Graxul on 12-13-2004 02:45 AM

Graxul Starweaver-Starsider
Grax Oblivion-Starsider
12-12-2004 11:35 PM  

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Re: Focus Thread: Loot Versus Craftables
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pervel
Jedi
Posts: 2168
Registered: 12-30-2003


pervel

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ikolian wrote:
Gah, quite whining. From what I've seen so far, (As a pilot and a SW) crafted is better than the average looted, and RE'd is better than crafted in pretty much all cases except the capacitors and that one 92.x speed reward engine. This seems fair to me; you can't get away with just straight loot, so you buy crafted, and if you're willing to put the time in (or fork out the dough) you can get stuff even better in the form of RE, which shipwrights do for minimal cost and by running a RE selling business you could make some decent profit.
 
Just my 2 cents.



Shipwright is a crafting profession. There is no point in this profession if the main goal is to RE loot and sell it.

12-13-2004 02:16 AM  

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Re: Focus Thread: Loot Versus Craftables
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Diorchas
Jedi
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Diorchas
PA: Ilum Trading, Corell Peaks, Corellia
Server: Kettemoor

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Graxul,
 
Not all Shipwrights are pilots.  I am, but some are not.  Those people would have to buy loot items in order to RE or have them supplied by their Guild.  Even those Shipwrights who are pilots as well can't support themselves selling RE equipment alone, even assuming that 1. they have enough supply and 2. everything they RE gets sold.  I've stood right next to the Chassis Dealer offering to buy loot for twice what he buys for and I get almost no business.  And there is RE equipment on my vendor that I RE'ed more than a month ago. 
 
In my mind the best solution to keep everyone happy is to let a Shipwright create a limited run schematic from a RE attempt.  That way the pilots are happy (because they still have a market for their loot and the end products are even better) and the Shipwrights are happy (because they are able to craft components equal to or exceeding loot and they've become an indispensible step in the looting process).
12-13-2004 04:10 AM  

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