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Dundee
Just off the shuttle
Joined: Jan 13, 2008
Posts: 25
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 Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| prime8 wrote: | Dundee
Yes in all fairness a game should be judged on its own merits , but when people are involved with a game that have been known to "Misbehave" then it's difficult not to have second thoughts , thus forgiven but not forgotten . |
Yeh, I hear ya. Difference between pre-ordering the game and waiting a few weeks to hear how it is before deciding whether to try it or not, I'd expect.
But man, I do that with all the MMOs these days, and I pretty much know I'm gonna play 'em a bit regardless just as a matter of research.
| Quote: | | "treat people like you would like them to treat you" |
I know, I know...
Some of it's a bit like all those psychology experiments where people are less likely to directly inflict pain on a person, but one-stepped removed and they become more likely.
Even ones who won't push a button to shock ya will push a button to flash a light to another guy which indicates its time for him to push his button, which shocks a guy...
Goes to the value of being involved with the community, I guess.
Or to the value of insulating your devs from the community, too, if you're the head honcho and you think you might want to shock some people one day.
_________________
--Jeff Freeman
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Owen-Lars
Novice Brawler
Joined: Dec 30, 2007
Posts: 76
Location: Leeds, England
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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Where do you think the level of community involvement is going these days? With SWG we had this setup that although much was apparently ignored etc and i suppose you could say went in one ear, out the other. But we still had a lot of things that you listened to. Other games you see a lot of more or less ignoring of the community all together.
I think if you get the community involved with saying what they want, making them involved then they will care about their game a hell of a lot more. I suppose with that comes both positives and negatives.
With the Ranger Revamp? Did people know that it was going to be deleted anyway? Because the dev in charge of that revamp certainly didnt seem to know as he was posting about what he was working on and what the systems were going to be. In the end we finally got this revamp we needed since launch but then a week after an update post we were deleted out of the blue. I think thats what upset a lot of ranger people. We were a smaller crowd because of a reason, we were incomplete and didnt have a role. Imagine if that was done to the jedi babies? They were promised a revamp after waiting two years seeing others get theirs first then a week after an update, being told they would be deleted. Their would be uproar. Just because we were smaller base didnt mean it didnt hurt as much.
I suppose what im trying to say is that one of SWGs biggest failings was that they didnt let the players know what was going on. When the NGE hit, it wasn't this nice surprise, it was a massive shock and holding off talking about it only worsened its impact. |
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wildcat
Admin Cabal
Joined: Dec 23, 2007
Posts: 166
Location: Huntington, WV
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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What I really wonder is, did all the Devs know the NGE was happening? And if they did, why did they deliberately choose to mislead us in public? Literally up to the week the NGE was announced they were discussing profession revamps within the CU system. They had, in fact, even done some of them, such as Commando and Squad Leader.
And I also wonder why they continue to run with the NGE blind to the fact that the reason why they can't get anyone to play the game anymore IS the core system NGE? Are they that dumb? Or, going back to WHY the NGE happened, are they just too stubborn to take the industry "e-peen" hit (which seems to be all that matters to developers) by opening up classic (and seeing them flood) and having to admit that their players were right and they were wrong.
I honestly think that this is the real reason why they never did classic servers, as it's an idea that makes all the sense in the world... Not even the "maintain two branches of code" argument makes any sense, you base what (if any) development they get purely off what revenue they bring in.
Besides, by this point, the players are so distrustful of Devs in general and SWG ones in particular that putting classic servers live then saying they will get NO development at all would actually be viewed as a POSITIVE!
But to not at least try them as a way to bring people back and to fix their reputation problem makes no sense. All they have to do is load a backup tape onto a server, put it live and see if enough people resubscribe to play on it to justify keeping it. It literally could be done with a few hours of work at most. |
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Owen-Lars
Novice Brawler
Joined: Dec 30, 2007
Posts: 76
Location: Leeds, England
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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The problem i see, being purely an observer, is that the people who would have the call on whether to put up classic servers are exactly the same people that made the call on the NGE. If they make the call to put up classic servers and they surpass the NGE server (no doubt they will) then that kind of makes their job non-existent anymore.
These guys dont want to be proven wrong, because if they do, it shows just how many millions their decisions have cost the company. If they dont do anything then its a very bad decision and they can blame it on a whole host of things such as player revolt, bad past quality of products, new games in the market more attractive etc. If they add the classic servers and they get more then all the blame is leveled on their NGE decision. The company will be in a better position but their decision will be what has lost so much money, damaged the company's image beyond repair and wasted a years development time that could of been spent on the cu code.
Ultimately and unfortunately for us, i think it comes down to job preservation. Those with the power to make the call are also the people who stand to lose the most by making that call. |
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Wolfmann
Just off the shuttle
Joined: Dec 29, 2007
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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Haaah! 
Dundee, there was never any new model or textures or any developement spent on the Imperial cap 
The cap that was "fixed" 1.5 years later was the same cap that the game launched with, the same cap that actually had been wearable (albeit brief) in beta. Same 3dmodel, same textures... The patch that contained the fix, had just a tiny wee lil file in it, that basicly fixed a typo in the wear code for it.
The fix never touched upon the bugged ability of the hat to take on your characters haircolor, nor did the fix contain new models or textures so that other species or females could wear it. They never made the 3dmodels and textures for that...
Tho there was a mod... where a modder had made a 3d model for females and "modded" it into his own game... Never got my hands on that mod tho... I really really wanted it.
Seeing the full Imperial uniform worn by a player in a Star Wars game, just was something... special
See Dundee, all the time spent on revamps and whatnot that angered the customer base... Could have been better spent on fixing the bugs and in "my" case, fixing "Star Wars"...
Why they never stuck to "Star Wars" in a Star Wars game will always be an enigma for me. |
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wildcat
Admin Cabal
Joined: Dec 23, 2007
Posts: 166
Location: Huntington, WV
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:33 am Post subject: |
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| Owen-Lars wrote: |
These guys dont want to be proven wrong, because if they do, it shows just how many millions their decisions have cost the company. If they dont do anything then its a very bad decision and they can blame it on a whole host of things such as player revolt, bad past quality of products, new games in the market more attractive etc. If they add the classic servers and they get more then all the blame is leveled on their NGE decision. The company will be in a better position but their decision will be what has lost so much money, damaged the company's image beyond repair and wasted a years development time that could of been spent on the cu code.
Ultimately and unfortunately for us, i think it comes down to job preservation. Those with the power to make the call are also the people who stand to lose the most by making that call. |
True, and this is exactly why it hasn't happened.
However, haven't we proven that NOT doing it, and not coming clean with us is also a reputation, job, and company killer?
It's not just SWG that is dying, it's SOE that is also dying. Their subscriber numbers across ALL games have been in freefall virtually since the NGE. In fact, they've lost 50% of their subscribers from 2005.
Look at what happened on the Vanguard forums when they got in bed with SOE. Now, while I don't think SOE had anything to do with Vanguard sucking as bad as it did (that was Brad's fault) their reputation no doubt helped hasten the demise of Sigil.
The same thing happened with Gods and Heroes as well as Pirates of the Burning Sea when their respective development companies partnered with SOE. Of course, PE had it's own ethical issues and collapsed prior to release (funny how SOE tends to partner with other flawed companies isn't it?)
There is a genuine moral outrage out there against SOE, what they represent, and what they have done.
I think this is really going to manifest itself in some way with POTBS, and even more when SOE rolls out the "Macrotranscam" scheme based "The Agency" as well as their DCMMO game. |
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kylrathin
Just off the shuttle
Joined: Jan 17, 2008
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:57 am Post subject: |
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| Did Smed make that word up? "Macrotranscam"? |
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wildcat
Admin Cabal
Joined: Dec 23, 2007
Posts: 166
Location: Huntington, WV
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kylrathin
Just off the shuttle
Joined: Jan 17, 2008
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 1:03 am Post subject: |
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Thanks, Cat. I brought my newbieness with me.  |
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Daylen
Just off the shuttle
Joined: Jan 16, 2008
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:03 am Post subject: |
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Hey Hey All
Hi Dundee
If you can answer a fast question:)
If I am not mistaken the Ithorian playable toons became available with JTL. If I am not mistaken JTL was a big project of yours. Did you work on the Ithorians? And a follow up question.... Was it even possible to loot a stat modified Ithorian "newsboy" hat? I love those:)
Thanks for your time and all the best.
Cheers
Daylen
P.S. If you don't mind being asked a few more Ithorian avatar development questions I have a few more. |
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KzinKiller
Just off the shuttle
Joined: Jan 18, 2008
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:53 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | An almost complete change in upper management at the studio-director level resulted in a few of us who had made the SWG that launched, had no input on the changes since then, suddenly empowered (ordered!) to change the game it had become.
Since we didn't like that game, and director-level management change was a very strong exec-level, "We do not either," we enthusiastically tackled the challenge of remaking it.
"We" few. Most of the designers were not enthusiastic about it.
And when taken completely off the leash altogether, with almost no boundary to how radical we could be... yeah, it was nuts. The only options off the table were 1) Doing nothing, and 2) pre-CU or 3) another combat-revamp.
'Cause they wanted something done, pre-CU had been tried already, and a combat-revamp had as well.
I was "team leading" a team of mostly me, and sometimes me and one other guy for most of the NGE's implementation: on the live team.
At times I was the only designer assigned to live, everyone else either on an expansion to the game, or the NGE.
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In a nutshell, there is the essence of the fraudulent behavior of SOE that will keep me from ever paying them another dime for any product.
I pay a monthly fee for you to properly deliver and maintain a product, and you spend the money on building something else to sell me that isn't remotely what I purchased. It's like paying my cable bill and then when the cable doesn't work, finding out they don't actually have any service staff to fix what doesn't work. Of COURSE I'm going to cancel and never do business with them again.
I'm not saying this is Jeff's fault in any way, it's a deliberate policy formulated by corporate stooges like Smedley. They're a bait-and-switch company and they'll do it every time for as long as it works. It just reinforces my belief since very early in the process that the SWG shop was managed by guys who couldn't manage a small town Burger King. No matter what design they chose, no matter how good the coders and artists and musicians, when you mismanage your available resources this badly, you get results like SWG got.
Never again. And no offense Jeff, but you're on the list of people associated with that project that, if I see your name on another product in the future, I won't go near it with a 10 foot mouse cord. Bad judgment is bad judgment, and you were part of a team with bad judgment of truly epic proportions, a "How Not to Do It" primer for all future software dev classes. |
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wildcat
Admin Cabal
Joined: Dec 23, 2007
Posts: 166
Location: Huntington, WV
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:38 am Post subject: |
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I still maintain my boycott, and my "name `n shame" offensive vs SOE, Smed, Cao, Ward, LEC, and the rest, but I'm willing to give Freeman a second chance now that I believe he KNOWS that what he did was wrong, has confessed to possessing the attitude of "fuck em" that I long suspected the Dev team, or at least the leaders had.
My challenge, as I said, to the others, is to come clean, admit to what you did and why, and prove to us that you are willing to make good.
It won't happen. Smed is going to ride the SOE airplane right into the ground. If his company were an airplane, it'd have all 4 engines on fire, the nose pointed straight at the ground and the pilots stoned out of their mind on dope. It's not a matter of IF they are going to smash into the ground in a fireball, it's a matter of if they will smash into a mountain and explode before they hit the ground.
Freeman, so far is the ONLY one involved in the NGE scandal who seems to realize that it was a game, career, reputation, and company killer. The others haven't.
Stay vigilant. Not only shouldn't you patronize SOE, you shouldn't buy Sony. Watch for the names to show up in other games. Avoid those. Make it clear to the publishers as to WHY you won't buy their products.
The only redemption possible for Smed and SOE is classic servers, an apology, and a resignation.
Wont' happen, but that is the price I'm requiring. |
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Obee
Just off the shuttle
Joined: Dec 24, 2007
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:49 am Post subject: |
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| Dundee wrote: | | Obee wrote: | | How many games that were making a profit have been canceled to make room for a new game in the hopes of making more money? |
Just about all of them that have ever been canceled, and almost none of them, depending on how you look at it, and who you are.
Seriously.
Most that have been canceled would never have earned back the money it cost to make them, and so in that sense were never profitable and never would have been.
But...
It's easy to run a game without losing money every month. You scale down live teams and hardware and of course bandwidth and customer service, etc. scale themselves down.
But a jazillionaire doesn't see ten employees bringing him $100 a month (after their salaries and benefits) as anything but a waste of ten employees' time. Maybe especially if they are working on something that cost him $30 million dollars to make.
Naturally, the employees don't see it that way at all - that game is buying their homes and sending their kids to college...
Any one wanting to tell you that running the game you love doesn't cost them anything, keeps a number of people employed, etc. won't have the authority to tell you that.
The guy making more or less nothing from the game is the one that'll make the call to shut it down, imply it's costing money to run. Even if stating it just isn't profitable enough - is failing to point-out that it's as profitable to the people working on it as anything else they could be doing (to them)...
But then too, in the sense that if you spend $30 million to make something that is returning $100 a month or so (profit, after paying salaries, etc. for a gang of folk), it's not really a lie to say that it isn't profitable.
| Quote: | | I would have to think that a company telling its customers 'This game is doing fine, we just think we can make a different game and make even more money with it.' would piss quite a few people off. |
Well, they never say its doing fine though, do they? They say it's "just not financially feasible" and "this was a difficult business decision to make" and so on.
That doesn't mean they were losing money on it.
| Quote: | | Doing either one and not offering refunds to customers who pre-paid for game time would likely result a lawsuits and possible fines. |
Oh yeah, no question.
Though in my experience, for most players it's not about the money. |
You're beginning to parse posts in the same way that made everything fall apart when you posted on the MMORPG.com board. A game that pulls in $100 a month over monthly costs, but cost $30 million to make, is not, nor ever will be profitable. For a game to be even potentially profitable, it has to be earning enough monthly revenue over monthly costs to be on track to recover the initial investment within a reasonable amount of time (what's reasonable will differ with the individuals involved). |
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wildcat
Admin Cabal
Joined: Dec 23, 2007
Posts: 166
Location: Huntington, WV
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:04 am Post subject: |
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I don't see how SWG could possibly be more profitable now with ~25K subs than it was with 250K. Sure, the Dev team is a lot smaller than it was then, but it's not 90% smaller. And their hardware/bandwidth expenses haven't dropped any considering that they haven't closed any of the 25 servers they have (although they need to close at least 20 of them).
Maybe SWG would have made more money per developer had they canned the teams working on CU's and NGE's and only kept the ones on the live game/expansions.
Again, the blame goes back to mismanagement of resources, and a reckless disregard for the people paying the freight. |
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Dundee
Just off the shuttle
Joined: Jan 13, 2008
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| KzinKiller wrote: |
In a nutshell, there is the essence of the fraudulent behavior of SOE that will keep me from ever paying them another dime for any product. |
doh! I didn't mean it wasn't being supported. The team size was massive then, and about at its peak... but live support came mostly from programmers (rather than designers).
Point being, "live lead designer" didn't prep me much for a lead position, not that I was in a sort of Home Alone version of game support.
_________________
--Jeff Freeman
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