there is NO craftable part except launchers and the chassis itself, which cannot be outdone by an RE'd part. period.
I disagree. Reactors, shields, and armor are all superior to loot, and if not then those 3 looted comps that can out do a masters crafted 3, they are very rare and you'd have to have like 9-10 parts to RE. REing 9-10 loots doesn't happen fast and it doesn't happen often so very few would have those 3 comps superior to a masters crafted 3, and if someone does, well they got lucky, blew up a hell of a lot of ships and deserve it.
W/out REing, those level 10 looted comps dont even compare, and REing 10 level 10 comps is not something thats happening on the daily. Why not let someone be rewarded who's collected that many? Your still going to make money even if a couple ppl have superior loot.
there is NO craftable part except launchers and the chassis itself, which cannot be outdone by an RE'd part. period.
I disagree. Reactors, shields, and armor are all superior to loot, and if not then those 3 looted comps that can out do a masters crafted 3, they are very rare and you'd have to have like 9-10 parts to RE. REing 9-10 loots doesn't happen fast and it doesn't happen often so very few would have those 3 comps superior to a masters crafted 3, and if someone does, well they got lucky, blew up a hell of a lot of ships and deserve it.
W/out REing, those level 10 looted comps dont even compare, and REing 10 level 10 comps is not something thats happening on the daily. Why not let someone be rewarded who's collected that many? Your still going to make money even if a couple ppl have superior loot.
I highly disagree on this one. I have 4 or 5 level 2-3 reactors under 3K mass with12K-15K power generation, all looted. Plus my level 8 33K mass 28K+ generation. More power than a fully overcharged MP ship could use. I dont think either of these can be touched. And Il'l point you to this thread for a discussion about 20K generation reactors.
BUT I THINK WE ARE MISSING THE POINT!!
How can we be saying that 1/2 of our stuff is better, the other half loot takes the cake AND BE OK WITH IT?!?!?!?
Message Edited by MonsofoLexius on 11-24-200410:53 AM
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there is NO craftable part except launchers and the chassis itself, which cannot be outdone by an RE'd part. period.
I disagree. Reactors, shields, and armor are all superior to loot, and if not then those 3 looted comps that can out do a masters crafted 3, they are very rare and you'd have to have like 9-10 parts to RE. REing 9-10 loots doesn't happen fast and it doesn't happen often so very few would have those 3 comps superior to a masters crafted 3, and if someone does, well they got lucky, blew up a hell of a lot of ships and deserve it.
W/out REing, those level 10 looted comps dont even compare, and REing 10 level 10 comps is not something thats happening on the daily. Why not let someone be rewarded who's collected that many? Your still going to make money even if a couple ppl have superior loot.
I highly disagree on this one. I have 4 or 5 level 2-3 reactors under 3K mass with12K-15K power generation, all looted. Plus my level 8 33K mass 28K+ generation. More power than a fully overcharged MP ship could use. I dont think either of these can be touched. And Il'l point you to this thread for a discussion about 20K generation reactors.
BUT I THINK WE ARE MISSING THE POINT!!
How can we be saying that 1/2 of our stuff is better, the other half loot takes the cake AND BE OK WITH IT?!?!?!?
Message Edited by MonsofoLexius on 11-24-200410:53 AM
mah reactors are quite singular, generally you really don't need much power as reactor3 is sufficent to fill most of the energy need
for example in my X-wing i use a lv8 shield and 3 weapons and as reactor i'm using a 1k mass 11+k crafted one and it works really fine. (weapon and engine overload3 running too)
i agree that looted reactors can be better than that, but as it does it's works and due to it's low mass i prefer it to every 10k mass 20k energy ones
there are even better looted reactors with similar mass, but again this is "ready", cheap and you have not to bother if it get damaged.
All I can say is that tonight I spent an hour (or more, I was trying not to look) in a futile endevour to fit all the possible MKIII parts into a TIE/In for a guild mate. The mass of his ship was 39,834. Granted I made one (more out of cusiousity than anything) that was almost 41k with my best resources, that still would have left me 10k short.
Simply put, it can't be done.
Even if it could, all the parts would be so piss-poor when compaired in stats quality to loot parts that the customer wouldn't even want them. Consiquently, aside from the trexture kits, paint kits, and droid ship (with my Merchant/DE) I trully have a hard time justifying my existance as a Master Shipwright. I could make ships, but then I could also have some semblence of a real life in the time it takes to gather and purchase resourses...
So... what I suggest is that the DEVs give us 10 seperate mass experimentation points. This way we may actually be able to both fit the parts into the ships and perhaps even make them worth while having.
It would also be nice if they reduced the chassis resouces by 50%. I mean come on, now that the resource stock piles are mostly gone is this really needed? I have 13 lots on high concentrations 24/7 and it's not enough to fill my vendor with master level ships, let alone all the ships... and I'm in a guild of over 85 people who help eachother out!
Suggestions:
Make looted items able to be added to crafted items while crafting.
Take looted item and add it to ingredient slot
Craft
Now, all stats are no lower than stats of the looted item!
Experiment, making crafted item better than looted item
Marvel at simplicity.
Give us 15 Experimentation points across the board
Reduce the resource requirements on Ships and higher end Missles
Even at 3cpu, nobody I know can justify litterally throwing that much cash away
Move some of the catigories to other tabs in the tool.
How does this relate? Saves my sanity, makes me less inclined to suggest that people just use looted items
Message Edited by falacy on 11-24-200410:50 PM
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1) The loot rate is way too high. Most pilots are cheapskates and will use a loot component before buying one, even if buying the component would me a higher quality component. These pilots are not the elites, but the common average pilot. Until loot rates drop, the component market will primarily be for custom built components.
2) The primary purpose for the loot rate being so high is so there are plenty of parts to RE to get the parts of the Firespray schematic. Maybe there should be a different way of getting that schematic, such as missions or random loot drops. Honestly the whole found something in the component thing is kind of cheesy anyhow.
As a pilot, I wanna chime in here (yeah, yeah, I will go back to **ll, but only after I post!)
I really like the idea 2 posts up about dropping a looted part in as a bonus crafting component. Maybe have it give a bonus to the baseline stats before experimenting though, instead of creating a new baseline. Like 1-5% per level of the shipwright to all stats and still retain the booster-items to give even further bonus to the baseline befoe one gets to the experimentation pahse of crafting. This would allow a crafter to consistently match the levels of loot off the bat and create a more customized item for the buyer with his experimentation. This would also give players another option for those crap parts besides dumping them on the chassis dealer (why, oh why did they make him buy parts? Pilots do NOT have to be rich!). It leaves making really fantastic parts in the realm of saving loot for RE'ing while having players use custom crafted parts that are exactly what they need/want. (I hope you guys charge for RE'ing BTW) And that right there is part of the problem as well, many pilots do NOT know what they need for the type of ship they are flying. Too many grind up and buy a new ship every time they can, which is good for you on one hand, but bad when you consider that half the stuff you can make is ill-suited to half your ships and your pilots decide you make crap parts because they don't know how to balance a ship for a specific role.
Some things to be mindful of. Light fighters need light components yes, but this means that your recharge rates on anything that has one should be as through-the-roof as you can make them. Heavy fighters/bombers should have high energy/hitpoints/armorpoints. And those medium fighters are the devil's own puzzle depending on what the pilots fighting style is. Educate your buyers and they'll keep coming back.
On a second note, I would like to offer a proposal on the resource issue: Recycling. A new option to rip apart an item to get SOME resources back out of it. Made or looted, doesn't matter. Make it so you get a choice of resource to recover, but can only recover one resource from an item and the item is destroyed in the process. And you will not get more than half of the number of resources of that type required to make it and it would be a random-type of that resource (meaning if you choose steel, it will be a ondom type that is curently in spawn on the server). Now then, to make this a SW skill or would another profession be better suited to having this? (merchant perhaps?)
On actual topic though, I will say I have never bought an engine, droid interface, capacitor or booster from a shipwright. Guns, armor, chassis, reactors and shields...yes and in numbers, but never the aforementioned items as they cannot compete compared to looted items even with tweaking. And I really do not want to see anything "nerfed". I will never understand the instinct to drag everything to the lowest levels instead of raising other things up to match. If you see a man slip and fall, do you help him back up or lie down beside him? You help him up of course! So devs, please, if you address this issue, please consider raising the abilities of the shipwrights and not lowering loot to the level of "useless inventory filling junk to sell when I hit dirtside again".
Styx66: Have you considered a sister-thead to this in the pilot forums asking a maybe-baited question about how useful Pilots find shipwrights when it comes to these parts in particular and all parts in general? (or did I miss it?)
I had mentioned in another post where the mark v components would have the option of inserting level 8 or higher looted components. The reason for only mark v components is because they are listed as experimental; i'm thinking of research and development on these types of components.
Why not any type of looted component? Simple, I don't want to see a 40k mass ship flying around with 3k mass, 60000 gen capacity reactors. It's unrealistic. Level 8's would be more for mass reduction, which is primarily important on craft such as the tie advanced and oppressor. The vs. shields and vs. armor ratings on any weapon above level 3-4 is about the same. The refire rate has a tendency to increase as well, so the lower level components would also compliment this stat.
On my server, crafted shields, armor and weapons are better hands down (except for some of the mission rewards). The vs shield and vs armor rating isn't as high, but the refire rate compensates for this weakness IMO. Looted engines, capacitors and boosters are better than crafted. Lower tier pilots should opt for a looted reactor, while higher tier pilots with higher mass ships should opt for crafted reactors. Along with shields, armor and weapons, SW's earn their credits by selling chassis, missile and counter measure launchers/packs. I would say this is a 60/40 split in favor of SW's.
The shipwright profession needs very little in the way of bug fixes or tweaks. With this said, I think the more important subject is "Why does this low level component have far superior stats than this higher level component?" This is the case with many capacitors and reactors I see. A level 2 capacitor with 1100 capacity, 1500 mass, and a 35-42 regen rate is crazy when compared to a level 5 capacitor. It's not uncommon to get these stats with a level 2 or 3 capacitor. Yet a level 5, which is supposed to be superior, tops out around 800 capacity, 22 regen, and weighs as much as a bull elephant.
Something else I've noticed but haven't tracked, is that it appears the even numbered components have better stats than the odd numbered components. As of yet, I haven't done any tracking to verify the validity, but just a mere observation when RE'ing parts. I also noticed this when outfitting my ships. Any looted or RE'd components are an even level number.
I don't want to see the "composite armor" mentality overflow into JtL. The current loot system allows all players, not just power gamers and professional loot hunters, to have an equal opportunity to get a nice piece of loot. If shipwrights feel that threatened by loot, maybe the armor hitpoints on looted components could be reduced so they aren't ingame as long as a player crafted item.
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So I can have a single thread to point our devs at, lets get a single comprehensive thread on your thoughts and examples of how (and which) looted items are better than crafted.
My experience so far is that the major blunder is capacitors, followed by engines (low YPR on crafted) and, honestly, weapons (low Vs. A and Vs. S drop damage (.5 avg compared to .6 or more on loot).
Share some examples of what you've found on a consistent basis that is always better than what we can loot.
For instance: I'm finding most level 2 or 3 looted capacitors with approx 800-900 total energy and a recharge of anywhere from 32 to 35. My crafted (with very good materials) maxes at about 700 energy, with about 23 recharge. Usually at twice the mass as well. Just not worth making.
Keep in mind there will be loot that is better, that won't go away. It seems that the frequency needs to be toned down. I'm using a lot of loot in my own ships and my parts are free. It was worse in beta. My ships were almost 100% loot. Is this happening to you and your customers?
Message Edited by styx66 on 11-22-200410:07 PM
I will not craft capacitors (have tried), boosters or droid interfaces. I tell customers to loot them as they can loot better tehn I can make.
I have a level 2 re capactor 40 recharge and 918 capacity with very low mass, the best level 7 I can craft is 34.8 recharge has to much mass and storage capacity sucks.
Another problem I have with crafting is with armor; try craft level 5 armor for less mass using the subcomponent that reduces mass now craft a level 3 armor for more hp's using the subcomponent that adds mass
The level 3 armor will have more hp's and less mass then the level 5 armor found this out when I had 6404 mass left for armor on my Kihrazx could not get the level 5 armor below 4k mass but the level 3 enhanced for more hp's is less then 3k mass.
Message Edited by Shadwe on 11-25-200405:22 PM
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Forward-I have made over 10,000 shipwright componants and am the #1 seller on my server by far, i also have the best stock of uber resources of any shipwright (from what i can tell) using all the #3-#1 best possible resources on the server (many of which are over a year old and 30cpu+). I hit about 95% on any single experimentation line that i want to on any componant. I've RE'd near a thousand componants, which isnt much really, but i've taken a look at the stats of thousands more on the bazaar.
This is my list of what i think should be done to balance loot/crafted items:
capacitors need a serious overhaul. 100% of everyone ever would agree. period.
engine YPR values need to either be combined into one experiment line, or each exp points effectiveness needs to be increased by a factor of no less then 5x in YPR.
best possible stats on looted componants need to be hard capped at 133% better then crafted. IE: if a lvl7 crafted reactor hits 15k mass with 95% experimentation, then the best possible looted one should hit no less then 6,600 mass. Currently looted componants can be up to 10x (1000%) better in a single stat then a crafted one, particularly in mass
looted weapons need to only be combineable with the same type of weapon. IE: looted disruptor can only be combined with other looted disruptors. Right now you can combine a disruptor, ion and blasters and get an insane gun.
looted componants should only have 1 stat 'above the best' crafted possible stat. ie: you shouldnt loot an engine with yaw, roll, pitch, speed and mass all better then a crafted componants of similiar cert lvl.
That's it. Keep the same drop rates, just make the above changes and i think everything will be balanced enough to allow shipwright to serve a useful purpose, while allowing pilots looting to still have fun trying to put together some goodloot to RE. Basically, it should be near impossible to make a lvl1-lvl3 componant that is even remotely close to any crafted componant. It should be difficult to moderately hard to make a lvl4-lvl7 looted componant that is hands down better then a crafted one. It should be relatively easy to make a lvl8-lvl10 that exceeds a crafted componant, but it's very hard to gather all 10 componants necessary to do so.
That's about it imo. As it stands right now, the whole loot system is seriously out of whack and it's starting to take it's toll on shipwrights. If nothing is done about it soon then the whole profession will be basically obsolete in a few weeks for the most part. (not unsimiliar to how armorsmiths only ever make composite)
As a general rule, loot > crafted. I'm a Master SW and I use mostly looted and RE'd stuff. Only generators seem to be better crafted, and only if you have the mass to spare. I don't bother to craft components unless I get an order for one.
Individual loot should not be greater than what a Master SW can make. Loot should have mostly avergae stats with potential for one good stat. This would make RE more important.
A better option from the start would be for RE to provide an upgrade that the SW could then use in a crafted component, possibly with a 1% per RE level of getting a limited use schematic for the upgrade (like 5 uses).
No decay + uber loot = /spit on crafters
Fix the economy and give crafters their $$$ worth... give us real revamp.
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I crafted a level 9 engine using very high quality resources, and got stats that were rather inferior to a looted level 6 engine that my friend dropped off. The level 6 engine has NOT been reverse engineered.
Level 9 (crafted):
Y/P: 55.0
R: 51.0
SPEED: 103.3
Level 6 (looted):
Y/P/R: 67.0
SPEED: 103.9
Something wrong there.
Now, to add some further data on this subject.... in my opinion, there should simply be a range on ALL components of every tier. I think there probably ARE ranges, but somewhere some numbers are skewed. In general, ALL looted components should be CONSIDERABLY inferior to crafted components. That is the way it has been with loot since day one, and that is what has made crafting professions appearling to myself and many other people.
Level 10 components should be very rare to find. I'm pretty sure they are. But in case they become more common, this should be fixed. People should be EXPECTED to have to seek out a PLAYER shipwright to really customize their ship.
As it stands, once a person buys a chassis or two, they can pretty much spend all their days as a pilot without ever visiting a shipwright again. This is highly unbalanced compared to other crafting professions, especially weaponsmith and armorsmith.
When was the last time you looted a very very good weapon? Sure, they DO drop. Nightsister lances, for example. But they are NOT at all common. Weaponsmiths still have a lot of work to do to keep the pepole happy. Why shouldn't this be the same for shipwrights?
This level 6 engine is so rare though its effect on our economy is nil. No more 92.6 reward engine now its 87 or something. I'd really hate to see them nerf loot any more than they have and enjoy what I see as balanced being both a crafting SW and looting pilot as of now.
I have only looted two level 10 somethings and I'm 3443 unless I'm real unlucky, 10's are rare.
If devs totally nerf loot to oblivion we will have no customers in the future with there being no rewards in space after their honeymoons end they'll redeed their ships for good with nothing good to loot, IMO. Thats really the only thing left thrilling about space is the chance of looting something good, spectacular backgrounds and killing AI? That honeymoon ends quick, and with no one pvping, loot is all there is to motivate ppl to launch.
If ALL loot is nerfed to be inferior to crafted, then ppl won't be enjoying space for very long and we will have very few customers to service, imo.
I have only looted two level 10 somethings and I'm 3443 unless I'm real unlucky, 10's are rare.
If devs totally nerf loot to oblivion we will have no customers in the future with there being no rewards in space after their honeymoons end they'll redeed their ships for good with nothing good to loot, IMO. Thats really the only thing left thrilling about space is the chance of looting something good, spectacular backgrounds and killing AI? That honeymoon ends quick, and with no one pvping, loot is all there is to motivate ppl to launch.
If ALL loot is nerfed to be inferior to crafted, then ppl won't be enjoying space for very long and we will have very few customers to service, imo.
Level 10 loot is rare. But the level is not really the issue. The stats are. You can quite easily find extremely good looted level 2 engines that have speed stats similar to lvl 7 crafted engines but mass and energy of lvl 2. Therein lies some of the problem.
If the devs do not do something about the loot, we will not have crafters in the future. Shipwrights need to be a profession that makes a difference in the game. Just like weaponsmiths are armorsmiths. It is the entire basis of this game that players depend on crafters to make them stuff. The chance to loot some really good stuff has been added as an extra excitement to the game. IMO, it is well and balanced for the ground-game today. But it is still severely unbalanced for JTL. When almost no master shipwright use their own capacitors, boosters, engines, droid-interfaces, and weapons, something is clearly wrong.
I have only looted two level 10 somethings and I'm 3443 unless I'm real unlucky, 10's are rare.
If devs totally nerf loot to oblivion we will have no customers in the future with there being no rewards in space after their honeymoons end they'll redeed their ships for good with nothing good to loot, IMO. Thats really the only thing left thrilling about space is the chance of looting something good, spectacular backgrounds and killing AI? That honeymoon ends quick, and with no one pvping, loot is all there is to motivate ppl to launch.
If ALL loot is nerfed to be inferior to crafted, then ppl won't be enjoying space for very long and we will have very few customers to service, imo.
Level 10 loot is rare. But the level is not really the issue. The stats are. You can quite easily find extremely good looted level 2 engines that have speed stats similar to lvl 7 crafted engines but mass and energy of lvl 2. Therein lies some of the problem.
If the devs do not do something about the loot, we will not have crafters in the future. Shipwrights need to be a profession that makes a difference in the game. Just like weaponsmiths are armorsmiths. It is the entire basis of this game that players depend on crafters to make them stuff. The chance to loot some really good stuff has been added as an extra excitement to the game. IMO, it is well and balanced for the ground-game today. But it is still severely unbalanced for JTL. When almost no master shipwright use their own capacitors, boosters, engines, droid-interfaces, and weapons, something is clearly wrong.
good looted components are quite rare, if you take out capacitators (looted are really better) and some reactors, is really difficult to find comps with very good stats, i loot a lot of comps to "craft" RE stuff and is not so common to see engines with crazy speed or awesome weapons, for engines i think they got rebalanced in the last patch as is a lot of time that i don't loot a low level one with 60+ speed and same for high end engines with 100+ speed.
Shields are similar i have yet to see a lv10 shield with more than 2.3k front or rear, or a lv7 (i'm "building" one) superior to 1.6-1.7k... probably with all the lv7 shields i looted i will end with stats quite similar to a good crafted one... not to say that i never found a shield with all stats superior to crafted ones.
again guns seem umbalanced, but again we must considers what level/stats they have lv 5-7-9 guns have low damage, lower efficency vs shields and armor but higher speed, lv 6-8-10 have huge damage but are sloooow, i think many time people underestimate the speed factor but is probably the most important one. for example i have a lv7 and a lv8 RE guns made with reward items the lv8 have around 1k more max damage than lv7, if you look at them you tell aaa this level 8 outdamages the other gun even if is slower... nope the lv7 is far superior to the other one. Same with the crafted guns, to beat a good crafted ion cannon you need an exeptional lv9 or 10 gun or a good RE one don't be fooled when you see 4+k dmg that if the speed is 0.42 or 0.43 the DOT will probably be far inferior to a good crafted lv9 weapon.
I like the enhancers idea myself. Only thing I would suggest is make it a different outcome of REing. Same tool but you gotta dont get a better RE'd item. Just enhancers that you can then use.
Tyranus
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Registered: 03-25-2004
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Some things in life are a miscarriage of justice, others are just funny. Karma's an odd thing no? Server: Chimaera
So I can have a single thread to point our devs at, lets get a single comprehensive thread on your thoughts and examples of how (and which) looted items are better than crafted.
My experience so far is that the major blunder is capacitors, followed by engines (low YPR on crafted) and, honestly, weapons (low Vs. A and Vs. S drop damage (.5 avg compared to .6 or more on loot).
Share some examples of what you've found on a consistent basis that is always better than what we can loot.
For instance: I'm finding most level 2 or 3 looted capacitors with approx 800-900 total energy and a recharge of anywhere from 32 to 35. My crafted (with very good materials) maxes at about 700 energy, with about 23 recharge. Usually at twice the mass as well. Just not worth making.
Keep in mind there will be loot that is better, that won't go away. It seems that the frequency needs to be toned down. I'm using a lot of loot in my own ships and my parts are free. It was worse in beta. My ships were almost 100% loot. Is this happening to you and your customers?
Message Edited by styx66 on 11-22-200410:07 PM
I'm a Pilot with two MSW's in my guild. I try and use Shipwrights as little as possible for a few reasons.
1: I go through parts like there's no tomorrow. I physically cannot afford to buy components at 80,000 credits minimum a pop, even when they are better than looted. Sorry, but that's the way it is.
2: I love looting, it's fun. It gives me a chance to go into space and have a tonk about and put my ship together. Sometimes I have to get shipwright crafted stuff for specifics, but paying through the nose for components and ammo and chassis' etc... has crippled my bank balance. Looting however is fun.
3: Thirdly - my guild shipwrights have been making components which utterly outstrip looted ones using only mediocre resources. Perhaps not the *exceptional* ones, but then I don't see the armoursmith correspondent or weaponsmith correspondent complaining about exceptional T-21's. Yes - there is a disparage, but not enough to make your profession broken. My guild shipwrights are earning more in a week than I can as a ranger. Harvesting 300 cpu avian meat. At 2milllion credits per hour rate. It's not perfect, but by no means is it broken.
4: Looted components allow a variation of styles. Shipwright is heading the way of space composite manufacturers. Big ships, with super shields massive armour and guns - doesn't matter if they can't turn, they can't be blown up.
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