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Thread: SWGEmu - 1.0 and the future of JTL

  1. #1
    The Vlada Vlada's Avatar
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    SWGEmu - 1.0 and the future of JTL

    Just so this doesn't get buried under a mountain of garbage from other sections, it would be such a bother to reply to these questions over and over again. So one more time, for you reading pleasure:

    Quote Originally Posted by lordkator View Post
    The JTL issue is it was written by a totally different team and the mechanics of the engine and the way game play worked was completely different than the ground game.

    Unless someone who is passionate AND very skilled in tick based 3d space games steps up to work on it then we will waiting for JTL until the end of time...

    Sorry, that is the brutal truth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Miztah View Post
    There's been a fair amount of JTL work done, but it's largely stuff like ships and many of the various portions that interact with the client. It's pretty functional as a single player space crafting game with flying and no enemies. The back end that actually handles large scale multiplayer movement/projectiles/etc in a 3d space environment is the mountain of a hurdle that has to be resolved.
    Quote Originally Posted by lordkator View Post
    We did a lot of investigation, I don't want people think we just threw our hands up, a couple devs (I won't name names) beat their brains out on it for months and made some progress here and there. But as we started to dig in deeper some of these things really smashed our hopes and dreams:
    1. JTL is a space game, the ground game is not really 3d, so we need different spatial indexing tech
    2. In space, projectiles "tick" (they move in a direction with a velocity) and they collide with another object, on the ground you can't dodge a rifle shot, in space you can dodge a missile.
    3. Since the game was written by different devs, some subtle things are different like the coordinate system is not the same as the ground game (i.e. x/z/y etc.)
    4. core3 was not designed for "ticks", we might be able to hack it in but it would be a nightmare
    5. In space nobody can hear you scream!!!!
    Now all this said, it CAN be done, its a lot more work than any of the current devs can afford to dedicate.

    I personally lack the drive/interest/passion to make the space game work. It was "ok" to me but never inspired me, I'm a MMO guy not a FPS'er or 3d Space kind of player.

    I would be happy to see a new "SIG" (Special Interest Group) form around JTL in the swgemu community, if we can find a couple talented and passionate devs who would like to leverage our CI/CD pipelines, test hosting etc then I'd be more than happy help and support.

    No matter what happens we are progressing towards 1.0, just at this point we do not see a path that includes full JTL emulation for it.

    We will hit the 1.0 milestone (no dates yet) and then launch a new server that will include on-going content expansion and other things the "new" server community will be passionate about.

    We have numerous ideas in this direction, and for me personally this is more interesting than waiting 5 more years while we try to reverse engineer more of JTL.
    Quote Originally Posted by xirad View Post
    Thanks for the additional info. I'm guessing you didn't expect to get ambushed like you did!
    Quote Originally Posted by lordkator View Post
    Nobody twisted my arm, I have wanted for some time to discuss this, it just felt right to do it now. The hardest part about great product management is saying "No" and the second hardest part is explaining why. I am a product manager by trade, I deal with this in real life everyday, and here I felt it was time to just open it up and be blunt about the situation.
    Quote Originally Posted by xirad View Post
    I think what you suggest makes a lot of sense and I think pretty much everyone here would agree with the path we're on toward 1.0 & Suncrusher sooner rather than later. I doubt there are THAT many players who are idling away on the ground game simply waiting for JTL. We're all here and play regularly because we love SWG. JTL would be a nice addition (I loved it on Live) but it's not the be-all end-all of the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by lordkator View Post
    I don't totally agree, we know MANY players who wanted JTL which is why this discussion is so difficult. In the end we really want people to be happy, to enjoy the version of the game we enjoyed, but you don't always get what you want, hopefully you get what you need! :-)
    Quote Originally Posted by xirad View Post
    Starting a JTL SIG sounds like a great idea and would possibly allow some brainstorming without sidetracking the devs working on the ground game.
    Quote Originally Posted by lordkator View Post
    For the right team, I'm happy to dedicate my time to devops support, some space on the community site, some test server containers and cpu etc. But to be clear, they need to convince the dev team they might have a reasonable chance of pulling it off. We don't need to get people's hopes up and then crash them on the rocks again.
    Quote Originally Posted by xirad View Post
    Since as you mention it might require hacks of core3 would it need to be a completely separate game engine? I'm curious how Lucas Arts/SOE did it back in the day. I'm wondering how a game engine like Unity might work. Of course then there's licensing costs, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by lordkator View Post
    Its unclear what the final design might look like, we have considered a second engine with a bridge between them to make it seamless for the player to come in and out of the ground game.
    Look on the bright side (or don't, it doesn't really matter at this point), without JTL, 1.0 is much, much, MUCH closer now.


    Hugs and kisses,
    Vlada

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  2. #2
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    To be clear, we are not certain what if anything from JTL will be included in 1.0, we have debated some features being included (travel, space crafting). But this opens up another dialog about "not a pre-CU" experience, plus dealing with 100's of bug reports "Hey my ship doesn't move" will become a big distraction for the team.

    We see SWGEmu 1.0 (pre-CU) as a milestone in the code base, where it makes sense we will back-port changes to pre-CU (bug fixes, stability, JTL etc.).

    Mainly we want to get to a point where vanilla pre-CU experience is available (short of JTL) and then open up to new ideas for future SWGEmu official server(s).

    We won't block others from running from the pre-CU code base, but we also don't want to be constrained by the pre-CU goal going forward.

    If over time JTL comes out against the pre-CU milestone (SWGEmu 1.0) then that might become part of future server(s) as an expansion release.

    Most importantly don't sit on the sidelines waiting for a wipe, short of a miracle it is a long ways off.

    When big changes are on the horizon we will talk about it well in advance and make sure everyone is clear on whats happening when.

    We will communicate in-game as well as on the forums, it will be well known to all active players in the community.

    FYI I am recruiting for JTL SIG, no promises, but I will take time to see if we can find the right people for the job: Call for Developers: JTL SIG
    Last edited by lordkator; 09-15-2019 at 05:11 PM.
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  3. #3
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    Thanks Vlada.

    Looks like the team is unified, I always considered JTL to be a different game overall and I am happy to see the scope of the project updated.
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  4. #4
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    JTL is dead RIP, can we at least get instant planet travel that came along with it?

  5. #5
    Senior Member makednoce's Avatar
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    Is planetary flight unavailable as well?

    /way 36, -5842
    Mods i use in SWGEmu

  6. #6
    Junior Member AL3XG's Avatar
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    Whats the status on SunCrusher?

  7. #7
    Junior Member jamieh909's Avatar
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    Thanks for the update
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    Quote Originally Posted by oMek View Post
    JTL is dead RIP, can we at least get instant planet travel that came along with it?
    Quote Originally Posted by makednoce View Post
    Is planetary flight unavailable as well?
    -- Copying my response to the JTL thread in the Developer forums --

    Quote Originally Posted by Asifab19 View Post
    I am just asking this because I simply do not understand what JTL actually entails and takes to make work here on swgemu. However I believe there are other servers that have JTL up and running. I am just wondering how were they able to get this done with out it previously being done here. Though it might not be a pre-cu server that I was told JTL is working on. I imagine if it wasn't a pre-cu server that the JTL there is very different from what we would need here?
    We are aware of some servers that claim to have JTL, but we're not aware of any that have the pre-CU game, fully functioning. That said some have used stolen source code to get the NGE experience going, we refuse to use the stolen code, we prefer to keep with our original direction of developing code from scratch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asifab19 View Post
    Also a few questions I would like to ask if you guys do not mind.

    1. Can you access a ship and go into space via the terminals at the spaceports?
    Yes, but collision is not working well so you can't fight or fly to places without just running through everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asifab19 View Post
    2. While in space are you able to leave the cockpit and go into the ships that have a living quarters attached to them?
    Spaceships are houses, so navigating the interiors is not a big challenge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asifab19 View Post
    3. While in space do you see other players? Just not enemies?
    You can see them on the mini-map, and to some extent outside the windows, but again without collision its not a great experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asifab19 View Post
    4. Is there any chance of giving ship access simply to avoid the starport run around, like having to go to Corellia instead of going from say Tatootine straight to Yavin IV?
    Yes it is possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asifab19 View Post
    5. If these things are not yet possible, would they be possible with extra dev support ( A new dev willing to donate time to make just these things work)?
    Many more things are possible with extra developer support, again this isn't use throwing our hands up, we've spent many months digging in and found the challenges to be more than we can address in a timely manner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asifab19 View Post
    I feel these are questions that many will now wonder about, and if we can get some clarification on if these things would even be possible with out the entirety of JTL being done would be fantastic.

    Thanks for all the hard work and time you've all donated to this project to bring back this amazing game for us.
    Thanks for the questions and recognizing that we're doing our best to keep the game alive.
    LordKator
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by lordkator View Post
    To be clear, we are not certain what if anything from JTL will be included in 1.0, we have debated some features being included (travel, space crafting). But this opens up another dialog about "not a pre-CU" experience, plus dealing with 100's of bug reports "Hey my ship doesn't move" will become a big distraction for the team.

    We see SWGEmu 1.0 (pre-CU) as a milestone in the code base, where it makes sense we will back-port changes to pre-CU (bug fixes, stability, JTL etc.).

    Mainly we want to get to a point where vanilla pre-CU experience is available (short of JTL) and then open up to new ideas for future SWGEmu official server(s).

    We won't block others from running from the pre-CU code base, but we also don't want to be constrained by the pre-CU goal going forward.

    If over time JTL comes out against the pre-CU milestone (SWGEmu 1.0) then that might become part of future server(s) as an expansion release.

    Most importantly don't sit on the sidelines waiting for a wipe, short of a miracle it is a long ways off.

    When big changes are on the horizon we will talk about it well in advance and make sure everyone is clear on whats happening when.

    We will communicate in-game as well as on the forums, it will be well known to all active players in the community.

    I am about 4 months into my experience in swgemu, should I bother starting the Jedi grind now? Or is it pointless at this point?

    Just asking because pouring 6 months into something just to rinse and repeat on a new server sounds daunting!!

    The prospect of 1.0 is exciting though! Just feel like I was too late to the party 😔

  10. #10
    SWGEmu Admin Lolindir's Avatar
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    You will not see SunCrusher this year...
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  11. #11
    Addicted Walking carpet's Avatar
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    Ok now we know the staff cannot deal with JTL cause of Core3 mainly not designed to support a 3d FPS collidable environment, lack of experience in that field and the urge to launch Suncrusher I understand but is there an active search going to find developers that can make it happen??
    We have lots of power as a community , we have Mobyus1 viewers, we have the interwebs we have Ralph Koster that keeping an eye on SWGEmu development he knows the devs of JTL and im pretty sure he would try at least connecting with the right people or giving you clues as to how to proceed even if hes got hes hand tied contractually , im sure if we advertise clearly whats needed ,how they could get rewarded if theres no salary, the basic request posted for hiring we would find someone.

    Other servers have JTL parts , you say they stole it from where ?
    cant you guys check there codes?

    SWGEmu 1.0 is not 14,1 compliant upon release like advertised it will be seen as a fail by many, I hate to see that happen after all the hard work you put in
    Last edited by Walking carpet; 09-01-2019 at 03:10 PM.
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  12. #12
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    I know I haven't said anything here for a very long time, but I am still actively following the project and I tell as many people about it as I can. I thought the original idea was to launch 1.0 before ever starting work on JTL. Did people not understand that or? I am hoping it can be included one day, but for now 1.0/ground game needs released first. Perfect it before EVER trying to work on a separate project. (JTL sounds like a separate project to me) Everyone needs to be patient and let the devs do their work. One day soon, we will all enjoy the game we once loved.
    Some may say that I am mad as a hatter, or madder then a March hare. But, that could be my split personality talking.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Garrion View Post
    I know I haven't said anything here for a very long time, but I am still actively following the project and I tell as many people about it as I can. I thought the original idea was to launch 1.0 before ever starting work on JTL. Did people not understand that or? I am hoping it can be included one day, but for now 1.0/ground game needs released first. Perfect it before EVER trying to work on a separate project. (JTL sounds like a separate project to me) Everyone needs to be patient and let the devs do their work. One day soon, we will all enjoy the game we once loved.
    The initial goal of SWGEmu v1.0 was Live SWG v14.1, which included JTL. I agree though, finishing the ground game and launching 1.0 makes more sense.

  14. #14
    Addicted Walking carpet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrion View Post
    I know I haven't said anything here for a very long time, but I am still actively following the project and I tell as many people about it as I can. I thought the original idea was to launch 1.0 before ever starting work on JTL. Did people not understand that or? I am hoping it can be included one day, but for now 1.0/ground game needs released first. Perfect it before EVER trying to work on a separate project. (JTL sounds like a separate project to me) Everyone needs to be patient and let the devs do their work. One day soon, we will all enjoy the game we once loved.
    your wrong , SWGEmu was always advertised including JTL , 14,1 live compliance includes JTL now i dont care if you launch the ground based code and suncrusher cause so many want it but i feel after Suncrusher is launched and stabilized there will be no JTL here since most of the main Staff will be gone , Miztah TA to name a few

    Heres proof of JTL working with collisions and functioning enemies
    https://youtu.be/ZDQLcP8_ccI?t=1069
    Last edited by Walking carpet; 09-01-2019 at 03:52 PM.
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  15. #15
    Junior Member xirad's Avatar
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    Darn you Walking carpet for attaching that video! I forgot how much I loved JTL and am impressed how well the graphics hold up even to today's games. I was worried that nostalgia wasn't what I remembered it to be!

    As Lordkator had mentioned, if there are developers passionate enough and dedicated enough to this endeavor all the more power to them in bringing JTL sooner rather than later! I don't have those kinds of skills (DBA by trade but no C/C++) but I like many others would be willing to QA and maybe help with at least LUA scripting. Let's get that JTL SIG going.


    Xir

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