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Thread: SWGEmu - 1.0 and the future of JTL

  1. #16
    The Vlada Vlada's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobyus1 View Post
    The initial goal of SWGEmu v1.0 was Live SWG v14.1, which included JTL. I agree though, finishing the ground game and launching 1.0 makes more sense.
    Actually it wasn't. Our goals changed a few times. When I joined staff 1.0 was going to be just ground game and then once that was released work on JTL would start (like Garrion said), if you check my posts from some 7 or 8 years ago (maybe more), you'll see that. I remember because I was kinda pissed when I saw some devs telling people that JTL was going to be part of 1.0 because it was never announced as a change of our goals and it meant that I was misleading the community for years. Now ironically it seems like I've been doing nothing but that.

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  2. #17
    Junior Member shivashandra's Avatar
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    Thanks for the update guys, if you think this is the best thing to do, we trust you, you are the one who led this project this far !

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  3. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Vlada View Post
    Actually it wasn't. Our goals changed a few times. When I joined staff 1.0 was going to be just ground game and then once that was released work on JTL would start (like Garrion said), if you check my posts from some 7 or 8 years ago (maybe more), you'll see that. I remember because I was kinda pissed when I saw some devs telling people that JTL was going to be part of 1.0 because it was never announced as a change of our goals and it meant that I was misleading the community for years. Now ironically it seems like I've been doing nothing but that.
    I guess that's what I get for only being an active member for 6-7 years and not 7-8. /shrug

  4. #19
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    I'd like to clarify some things mentioned in here. First of all, we've been open to accepting new developers since the project opened, there has never been a point where we didn't accept worthwhile additions to the team. The reality is, our codebase is dauntingly large and complex, and very difficult for anyone new to jump into and make any sort of meaningful development progress at this point. We occasionally get people willing to contribute small changes, but big feature additions are something that would take a very through understanding of the code to even attempt. Most new people aren't willing to put that kind of time into the project, so our team rarely grows.

    Also, this information doesn't mean we're abandoning JTL. For the moment, we're accepting the reality that none of us have as much free time to develop as we did in the past, and it's not worth holding back a major project milestone by tacking on multiple additional years of development while we try and work out a new backend.

    We're considering 1.0 as our "the ground game is done" milestone, which means that large population test servers like Basilisk won't be necessary anymore. So at that point, when we're confident with the ground game's status is complete, we can move on to working on our own live play server environment without the 14.1 constraints. We'll still continue to make fixes to our 14.1 codebase as LK said, but we'll also be open to do our own custom changes as well.

    However, don't think this means 1.0 or SunCrusher are coming soon. We've still got some major feature sets to complete first (new AI, imperial crackdown, gambling, etc), so at the very least 1 or 2 more publishes before we can say we're happy with how complete it is. Don't let it affect your decision to play, because Basilisk will still be up for a long time, and we may consider keeping it running when we spin up our own play server down the road.

    So don't take this news as the team giving up on anything. Many of us want to work on JTL, but the reality is it's going to take a good amount of time. Having 1.0 not include JTL allows us to have a reasonable timeframe to completion, and it allows our player base to finally play the game without the negative affects of a testing environment like exists on Basilisk. At that point, we're able to keep poking at JTL at our own pace without the community having to wait years longer for a play server.
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  5. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Miztah View Post
    I'd like to clarify some things mentioned in here. First of all, we've been open to accepting new developers since the project opened, there has never been a point where we didn't accept worthwhile additions to the team. The reality is, our codebase is dauntingly large and complex, and very difficult for anyone new to jump into and make any sort of meaningful development progress at this point. We occasionally get people willing to contribute small changes, but big feature additions are something that would take a very through understanding of the code to even attempt. Most new people aren't willing to put that kind of time into the project, so our team rarely grows.

    Also, this information doesn't mean we're abandoning JTL. For the moment, we're accepting the reality that none of us have as much free time to develop as we did in the past, and it's not worth holding back a major project milestone by tacking on multiple additional years of development while we try and work out a new backend.

    We're considering 1.0 as our "the ground game is done" milestone, which means that large population test servers like Basilisk won't be necessary anymore. So at that point, when we're confident with the ground game's status is complete, we can move on to working on our own live play server environment without the 14.1 constraints. We'll still continue to make fixes to our 14.1 codebase as LK said, but we'll also be open to do our own custom changes as well.

    However, don't think this means 1.0 or SunCrusher are coming soon. We've still got some major feature sets to complete first (new AI, imperial crackdown, gambling, etc), so at the very least 1 or 2 more publishes before we can say we're happy with how complete it is. Don't let it affect your decision to play, because Basilisk will still be up for a long time, and we may consider keeping it running when we spin up our own play server down the road.

    So don't take this news as the team giving up on anything. Many of us want to work on JTL, but the reality is it's going to take a good amount of time. Having 1.0 not include JTL allows us to have a reasonable timeframe to completion, and it allows our player base to finally play the game without the negative affects of a testing environment like exists on Basilisk. At that point, we're able to keep poking at JTL at our own pace without the community having to wait years longer for a play server.
    I think I understand now, thank you all for the hard work you do on this project
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  6. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Miztah View Post
    I'd like to clarify some things mentioned in here. First of all, we've been open to accepting new developers since the project opened, there has never been a point where we didn't accept worthwhile additions to the team. The reality is, our codebase is dauntingly large and complex, and very difficult for anyone new to jump into and make any sort of meaningful development progress at this point. We occasionally get people willing to contribute small changes, but big feature additions are something that would take a very through understanding of the code to even attempt. Most new people aren't willing to put that kind of time into the project, so our team rarely grows.

    Also, this information doesn't mean we're abandoning JTL. For the moment, we're accepting the reality that none of us have as much free time to develop as we did in the past, and it's not worth holding back a major project milestone by tacking on multiple additional years of development while we try and work out a new backend.

    We're considering 1.0 as our "the ground game is done" milestone, which means that large population test servers like Basilisk won't be necessary anymore. So at that point, when we're confident with the ground game's status is complete, we can move on to working on our own live play server environment without the 14.1 constraints. We'll still continue to make fixes to our 14.1 codebase as LK said, but we'll also be open to do our own custom changes as well.

    However, don't think this means 1.0 or SunCrusher are coming soon. We've still got some major feature sets to complete first (new AI, imperial crackdown, gambling, etc), so at the very least 1 or 2 more publishes before we can say we're happy with how complete it is. Don't let it affect your decision to play, because Basilisk will still be up for a long time, and we may consider keeping it running when we spin up our own play server down the road.

    So don't take this news as the team giving up on anything. Many of us want to work on JTL, but the reality is it's going to take a good amount of time. Having 1.0 not include JTL allows us to have a reasonable timeframe to completion, and it allows our player base to finally play the game without the negative affects of a testing environment like exists on Basilisk. At that point, we're able to keep poking at JTL at our own pace without the community having to wait years longer for a play server.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mobyus1 View Post
    No Pre-CU server has functioning JTL because SWGEmu is trying to do things LEGALLY and rewrite code from scratch instead of stealing it.
    At one point I took the SOE code and made several major codebase rewrites over the course of awhile to attempt to get it to zone in with our vanilla CU client. It was a lot of work, but I was able to get very close to achieving zone in the CU, however I have well abandoned said work quite some time back.

    Saying that since even if there was a desire to rewrite the NGE code to be compatible with the Pre-CU client, would be even more work for pretty much no payoff compared to the amount of effort involved.

  8. #23
    Junior Member Thrax989's Avatar
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    It's a bit hard to contribute to the jtl portion of the project when the design concept / shift of development for it has changed constantly not to mention most of the work is done privately so there is no real open progress being made. An example of jtl progress really not being open to the public would be https://www.swgemu.com/forums/showth...ump+lightspeed if you check the videos and screen shots yes it looks nice but for a developer not on the team there is not much we can start on or contribute to when it's being worked on mostly privately or on personal development box's, More progress could be made if more transparency / code was available to work on otherwise anyone new would just be starting from scratch while other developers are working on already developed work privately.

    as seen below there has been private progress https://youtu.be/6mkFM0CMrQk?t=130
    Last edited by Thrax989; 09-01-2019 at 05:58 PM.

  9. #24
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    Is there any chance of asking Sony/Disney for rights to use the original JTL code? Didn't the base code remain the same throughout Live? (other than stuff being added to it?)
    It would sure be quicker than starting from scratch like for the ground game. But didn't you have to start from scratch on the ground since they deleted and changed the base code for CU and NGE?
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  10. #25
    SWGEmu Admin Lolindir's Avatar
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    Slim to non would be my guess. What would their incentive be to give anything to us?
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  11. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolindir View Post
    Slim to non would be my guess. What would their incentive be to give anything to us?
    Happy retarded fan base that is still holding and hoping to get to play 15-16 year old game?

    And someone that is holding key to that also played swg and hopefully hates Smedly....
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  12. #27
    SWGEmu Admin Lolindir's Avatar
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    Its all about rights and he don't hold them
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  13. #28

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walking carpet View Post
    Ok now we know the staff cannot deal with JTL cause of Core3 mainly not designed to support a 3d FPS collidable environment, lack of experience in that field and the urge to launch...
    I would appreciate if people read slowly what I write here, I take time, think about my words, and work to be very specific.

    Never once did I mention "lack of experience in that field" being a blocker, we have many senior developers, I personally have written code since 1981. I've written code for missile defense systems, accounting systems all all sorts of stuff, but I am not passionate enough to spend the next 5 years with my wife looking at the back of my head while I code our way out of JTL.

    Please be very careful when you insult our development team, we're all volunteers, many of us PAID professionally for our work and come here in our spare time to contribute.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walking carpet View Post
    ... I understand but is there an active search going to find developers that can make it happen??
    That's what we're discussing right now, if your C++ experience is strong enough please apply and let's get cracking!

    Quote Originally Posted by Walking carpet View Post
    We have lots of power as a community , we have Mobyus1 viewers, we have the interwebs we have Ralph Koster that keeping an eye on SWGEmu development he knows the devs of JTL and im pretty sure he would try at least connecting with the right people or giving you clues as to how to proceed even if hes got hes hand tied contractually , im sure if we advertise clearly whats needed ,how they could get rewarded if theres no salary, the basic request posted for hiring we would find someone.
    Everytime I go to the super market and put food in my shopping cart the little girl at the door makes me pay for it! It's horrific but as long as she keeps doing that most people will need to be paid to work. We've spoken to Raph, and all the people he knows are getting paid for work.

    Meanwhile you're asking people who worked on this system, 15 years ago, to remember the code, violate thier contracts and tell us how to write it? If only it were that easy! Have you looked at our code base? It's 519,074 lines of code, on a standard 8.5" x 11" paper that's a 7,864 page book! Imagine if JTL were even just 1/2 as complicated! Before you jump to conclusions it would be great if you sat and thought through the scale of what you're saying. Even if we had $3m of cash it would take a good sized team of devs at least 2 years to re-build JTL from scratch. If we raised that kind of money and started hiring developers and provided them with offices, health care and all the other things needed, well we'd be out of a job on day three because the rights holders to Star Wars would rightfully shut us down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walking carpet View Post
    Other servers have JTL parts , you say they stole it from where ?
    cant you guys check there codes?
    You know where, don't play coy, and it's illegal code, we won't use it, we have no reason to upset the righful owners of copyrighted materials.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walking carpet View Post
    SWGEmu 1.0 is not 14,1 compliant upon release like advertised it will be seen as a fail by many, I hate to see that happen after all the hard work you put in
    If the community considers 519,074 lines of code with 13,368 commits across 15 years a total failure then I will be shocked. You can play most of this game now, Basilisk has been on-line nearly longer than the entire game itself! If that's failure, I'd love to see your definition of success.

    I get that this upsetting to some of the more passionate members of our community. I prefer transparency, even when it's not convenient. So there you have it. Read slowly. Think before you type. And let's figure out what's next.

    Here's a little stat for you, almost 1,000 unique accounts have played Basilisk this month and only 105 people actually donate monthly (85 as subscriptions).

    When people flip out about this effort like they own it, I'm shocked, because only 1 in 10 people DONATE any effort towards the game's progress.

    But they sure are happy to jump up and down when something doesn't go their way. Before you reply, think on that, I personally have donated 4,850 USD to this project and massive hours. Others have donated 10x as much in raw time. Exactly how are we all failing you?

    What are you doing to move the project forward?
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  15. #30
    Member hotsplice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolindir View Post
    What would their incentive be to give anything to us?
    Advertising. They can advertise on the (now unskippable) start-up screen. I don't want to get off-topic though. Just want to tell you guys that, although I'm very bummed-out by the news, I support you 100% and will continue to donate money to the cause. I think finishing the ground game, wiping Basilisk and starting fresh with a balanced server (i.e. not as many toons per player) will be fantastic. But having said that: YOU WILL FINISH JTL AND MAKE IT PART OF THE GAME. It ain't SWG, hell, it ain't Star Wars, without space, and JTL was particularly awesome. I'm one of those people who have been hanging on this whole time waiting for JTL because that's the most important part. Not the ground game. So, we're going to figure out getting JTL up and running. We're going to break through all obstacles like Bula Matari. No sleep till lightspeed!

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