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Thread: SWGEmu - 1.0 and the future of JTL

  1. #61
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    Time for JTL...

    I think there is a 100% chance we can have JTL, but the only way it happens is if we get devs who are passionate about it and want to commit their spare time to advancing the code.

    Let me share a thought with everyone that I often share with people I'm mentoring. There is one resource every one of us gets every day, and we lose when we go to bed that night: Time. It's the same for everyone, kids to billionaires. If that's true, then, in reality, the most valuable asset you have to bring to the world is Time. How you use that Time is up to you, maybe you play computer games, perhaps you code, maybe you walk your dog, spend it reading a good book or just snuggling with your loved one. Let's get real; this project is a passion project, it's a time suck, for the players it is a massive time sink, and for the developers, it's the same if not worse. We code on the game so much most of us never get to play anymore. And we write the code that is the game, the mechanics of the game become less magical because we know the code. It's hard to stay motivated to play a game where the magic is gone; meanwhile, the SO (wife, girlfriend, boyfriend, dog, cat) stares at the back of your head for countless hours wondering WTF you're doing.

    I think it's hard for people to understand, but think of this, why do our devs (including myself) spend so much time here? We don't get paid, in general, we get lambasted on the forums, and people are always convinced we're corrupt and playing on dev island somewhere having fun without you all. All of us have different reasons, but some common themes are we are passionate about this game, we enjoyed it so much we want to share it with others. We also love to learn new things and to push ourselves to do something great lots of people can enjoy. But every one of us has to pay our bills, and we have friends, family, loved ones around us who would like to spend time with us doing things together.

    The JTL decision is not about technology, it is literally about Time. Time until we can start innovating and being passionate about our work again. Time until we can create new things the community can play with and enjoy. Time to spend with our loved ones playing the game we want to play because we just committed a new quest or whatever and want to play with it and share it. Or we can spend that Time writing more code in the dark for JTL, with everyone complaining about how the project is stagnant and why don't we have x, y or z implemented and why do we let people camp this mob or that. Remember also this "quest" for JTL for us would mean many moons in a dark room, we can't release it incrementally, it'll be long periods of getting lots of systems working and then we can try releasing some test versions that people can use and test. It would be another year before that might happen at the current commit levels of our dev team and at the expense of getting the ground game done. Hence we decided it was time to move on, to finish the ground game and get to a place where we, the developers, are excited again and use that passion to implement new ideas and have the community enjoy those things.

    Passion and Time: The fuel that makes this project move forward!

    PS: I spent 1.75 hours today on the forums (I got up at 6am, it's 7:44am), is that really how you want me spending my Time on this project?
    Last edited by lordkator; 09-02-2019 at 11:51 AM.
    LordKator
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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by lordkator View Post
    I think there is a 100% chance we can have JTL, but the only way it happens is if we get devs who are passionate about it and want to commit their spare time to advancing the code.

    Let me share a thought with everyone that I often share with people I'm mentoring. There is one resource every one of us gets every day, and we lose when we go to bed that night: Time. It's the same for everyone, kids to billionaires. If that's true, then, in reality, the most valuable asset you have to bring to the world is Time. How you use that Time is up to you, maybe you play computer games, perhaps you code, maybe you walk your dog, spend it reading a good book or just snuggling with your loved one. Let's get real; this project is a passion project, it's a time suck, for the players it is a massive time sink, and for the developers, it's the same if not worse. We code on the game so much most of us never get to play anymore. And we write the code that is the game, the mechanics of the game become less magical because we know the code. It's hard to stay motivated to play a game where the magic is gone; meanwhile, the SO (wife, girlfriend, boyfriend, dog, cat) stares at the back of your head for countless hours wondering WTF you're doing.

    I think it's hard for people to understand, but think of this, why do our devs (including myself) spend so much time here? We don't get paid, in general, we get lambasted on the forums, and people are always convinced we're corrupt and playing on dev island somewhere having fun without you all. All of us have different reasons, but some common themes are we are passionate about this game, we enjoyed it so much we want to share it with others. We also love to learn new things and to push ourselves to do something great lots of people can enjoy. But every one of us has to pay our bills, and we have friends, family, loved ones around us who would like to spend time with us doing things together.

    The JTL decision is not about technology, it is literally about Time. Time until we can start innovating and being passionate about our work again. Time until we can create new things the community can play with and enjoy. Time to spend with our loved ones playing the game we want to play because we just committed a new quest or whatever and want to play with it and share it. Or we can spend that Time writing more code in the dark for JTL, with everyone complaining about how the project is stagnant and why don't we have x, y or z implemented and why do we let people camp this mob or that. Remember also this "quest" for JTL for us would mean many moons in a dark room, we can't release it incrementally, it'll be long periods of getting lots of systems working and then we can try releasing some test versions that people can use and test. It would be another year before that might happen at the current commit levels of our dev team and at the expense of getting the ground game done. Hence we decided it was time to move on, to finish the ground game and get to a place where we, the developers, are excited again and use that passion to implement new ideas and have the community enjoy those things.

    Passion and Time: The fuel that makes this project move forward!

    PS: I spent 1.75 hours today on the forums (I got up at 6am, it's 7:44am), is that really how you want me spending my Time on this project?


    Less forum reading/writing bud and lets start to cracking those Bio Engineer fixes
    Chef:Food and Drinks / Bio-Engineer:Pets, Foods, StimPacks, VitalityPacks // Vendors @ -IO- Imperial Outpost Tatooine:/way -1924 -6596 Santee's Place

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimbab View Post
    Less forum reading/writing bud and lets start to cracking those Bio Engineer fixes
    LOL See now you got it! Sadly already burned all my free time, off to the honey do's for the day off...
    LordKator
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    lordkator@swgemu.com | www.swgemu.com
    SWGEmu is a non-profit, open source community project.
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by lordkator View Post
    LOL See now you got it! Sadly already burned all my free time, off to the honey do's for the day off...
    hehehe aight bud have a good one
    Chef:Food and Drinks / Bio-Engineer:Pets, Foods, StimPacks, VitalityPacks // Vendors @ -IO- Imperial Outpost Tatooine:/way -1924 -6596 Santee's Place

  5. #65
    Member dsrules's Avatar
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    Actually JTL is already implemented. Simply open the Game Menu and click Credits.

    Then take note of those names and be grateful that JTL could be a possibility at all.

  6. #66
    Senior Member Hedge15's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hedge15 View Post
    Who knows when we would have found out about this if someone hadn't randomly asked about JTL on the development forum last week.
    Quote Originally Posted by lordkator View Post
    The random questions come all the time, don't be so negative, what would be our motive to keep these things from you? Like there is some stock we can buy without you knowing that will go down the day you know?
    Yes, that's ridiculous, that's why I was wondering. It seems like it's been under wraps for a while.

    Quote Originally Posted by lordkator View Post
    No, we've been debating on how to talk about the path forward. And to be direct, I was hoping to write some articles about where we are headed and just haven't had the time. So it's my fault more than anyone else's. This question just hit me at the right time, I won't go into the details but I have been deeply reflective on the time I spend on this project, trying to think about where I want to go with my time, and this question just hit me right in the chest.



    I wish more people here would stop trying to read all sorts of BS into our actions, we're all humans, busy and we have a lot going on, and the little bit of time we can donate to the project we don't want to waste on the forums writing for hours a day.

    My one answer has cost me literally 5 hours I could have been doing other things, with my wife, my family, the project. At this rate I can spend every day writing to you all and never get anything done on the project.

    If it were your choice, which would it be?
    The one you've made. I just hope it would have been clear to me I should let people know as soon as I'd made it, or even when I started to seriously consider it. We all know now, so that's that.

  7. #67
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    To the Devs,
    My dad and I fully support you and your efforts. We are active donors and wish to see this project come to completion.
    We have many fond memories of playing together on the original game and are grateful we are able to do so again together.
    Honestly, with how much bull you all put up with I'm shocked you don't say to hell with it all. Thanks for hanging in there.

    Cheers for SWGEMU 1.0!

  8. #68
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    I see this as good news. JTL was nothing special imho - the ground game was and is what makes this game special and differs from the rest out there.

    Thanks for the update and keep up the good work!

  9. #69
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    I don't post much here but I read up on developments all the time. I play on the awakening server and I have played here.
    Attacking the devs is outrageous and utterly pathetic . What they have achieved here is nothing short of incredible. I thought this was a pipe dream and we would never have what we have right now. I'm disappointed about JTL but that's the way it goes.
    Thank you from the bottom of my heart for what you have done to this point.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by lordkator View Post
    We asked, they said bring $250m in unmarked bills to the next meeting and we'll think about it.



    Seriously think about what you just typed man, this is a multi-billion dollar franchise and we're not worth the dirt on the bottom of the shoe of the guy catering the food for the last movie shoot.
    Sad...I would only put that value on Smedster. Too bad they can't see the value of people who loved the game so much that they are still here and are trying to recreate it.
    Last edited by Poobacca; 09-03-2019 at 12:12 AM.
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  11. #71
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    Is it possible for JTL to be developed incrementally? I mean like just being able to fly around in x,y,z (which is probably a ***** to code). Then add collisions. Then add missiles and so on. Or does it have to all be done at one time?
    Not asking to stall the ground game for JTL. I agree with your decision. Just wondering if it can be done in stages if you get the right team to work on it.

    Why has there never been another player centered crafting system sandbox mmo????
    Not a KOTOR.
    Last edited by Poobacca; 09-03-2019 at 12:14 AM.
    Please make drops to Poo's Booty Vendor at 806, -3900 on Corellia.

  12. #72
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    IDK about everyone else but I'll be honest and say I play on Bas (and have done for years) and I also play on an NGE server with JTL and I'm willing to bet a large amount of our player base are just like myself. In some ways I like the pure aspect of a ground game 1.0, but most importantly I just wanted to say to the Devs / CSR and all who contribute to this project - thank you, you enabled me to play the thing I loved. Thank you, and I'm super stoked about 1.0 even though it means losing everything I've worked for for years

  13. #73
    Member dsrules's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poobacca View Post
    Is it possible for JTL to be developed incrementally? I mean like just being able to fly around in x,y,z (which is probably a ***** to code). Then add collisions. Then add missiles and so on. Or does it have to all be done at one time?
    Not asking to stall the ground game for JTL. I agree with your decision. Just wondering if it can be done in stages if you get the right team to work on it.

    Why has there never been another player centered crafting system sandbox mmo????
    Not a KOTOR.
    AFAIK, the most basic space/ship flying (essentially atmospheric flight) allows you to fly around just as you should with some exceptions. And space terrain objects like asteroids have collision already.

    It's just so much more than that. I think implementing JTL before 1.0 or even doing it in increments would inevitably lead to new groundscene bugs, therefor making 1.0 take longer.

  14. #74
    Junior Member chasey lain's Avatar
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    Thanks for giving us clarification on the project. Always good to have direction and whats expected.

    Excellent job so far guys.

  15. #75
    QA (semi-active) Lorrianna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hakry View Post
    I do not often post on the forums, however I just want to take a quick moment to thank those of you who are being level headed and taking the time to read the posts from the Developers as well as other Staff and recognize that this decision was well thought out with a good bit of wisdom and experience behind it.


    Like Vlada said, think of the great things that could be in the future for the project and projected post 1.0 server, when the times come for it.
    My full support to the Dev Team and all the Staff on how this constraint has been evaluated, the decision made and communicated.

    Like LordKator and others, I'm also a professional in the technology field on the strategy, portfolio & governance side.

    These are the types of difficult decisions that people in technical and leadership roles...especially those who are ultimately accountable for the outcomes... have to make constantly.

    What matters is how you handle them.

    What Vlada, LordKator, Miztah, and Hakry are pointing out is how they're handling the Cost of Delay delivering 1.0

    Cost of Delay is professional way of evaluating and communicating the impact of TIME on the OUTCOMES we hope to achieve by balancing tradeoffs in product.

    We use this because it provides the most objective & balanced way of dealing with these tradeoffs in product management.

    These volunteers are using professional ways of prioritization and decision making to achieve the outcomes we're all passionate about, because we're fortunate to have some professional in product development & management among them.

    I think we can all be clear in our understanding.
    • The Dev Team are NOT say "no" to JTL
    • Let's not delay 1.0 because of the unique challenge of JTL resulting from decisions made by SOE/LA
    • They've invited those with the passion, specific expertise at the right level, and time commitment to learn the Core3 environment and codebase to STEP UP if they want to contribute toward JTL as a feature release following 1.

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