Coming Changes to BH/Jedi

[Lolindir]

Coming Changes to BH/Jedi

02/01/2022
The SWGEmu Team


There is a lot of speculation going on regarding two commits that have been pushed to gerrit. Both commits are what we refer to as "two way doors," which means they can easily be toggled once they go live. So I would like to break down the commits a bit so they are easier to understand for all, as well as a change to the ToS regarding Jedi and Visibility.



First of all Jedi have fallen under a ToS rule when it comes to visibility for a long period of time. That is as follows:

4.1.3 Phishing is defined as deliberately and persistently wandering into the "visibility radius” of a Jedi to force them onto BH terminals. That said, the galaxy’s currently a dangerous place for a Jedi and they can’t expect to be in one location for long without attracting attention.

This has given Jedi an unbalanced amount of protection when it comes to their visibility. We are going to remove and/or revise this policy because part of playing a Jedi is the fact that you can get visibility and land on the Bounty Hunter Terminals. With that being said there are still rules in place for harassment for all players and should be followed.



The proposed changes:

[Added] Config option to anonymize jedi missions on bounty hunter boards

With the AnonymousBountyTerminals configuration enabled the missions will not show the name of the player directly on the terminals when the mission is listed.
[Changed] Mission rewards to anonymous Jedi missions to static amounts with additional bonus credits upon completion based on target difficulty

Payouts are listed as a static amount and the remainder of the payout based on mission difficulty will be given as a bonus upon completion of the bounty mission.
[Added] Additional message to seeker droids with target name if missions are anonymous

The name of the player Jedi will be given once a Seeker Droid has found the target

Example:

https://i.ibb.co/zXCBn5w/AnonJedi.jpg


[added] Config variable to allow for custom bounty mission expiration time

Currently player bounty missions can be held for 48 hours before they expire. We are reducing that amount of time to 24 hours. This is in order to prevent friendly BHs from holding a Jedis mission so they cannot be hunted by those that may wish to see the contract carried out.
[added] config option to disable visibility generated from group members

With this change Jedi will not gain visibility from players that they are grouped with. However, they are still open to gain visibility from all other players and NPC's.

Other issues we are actively looking into:

Pulling AI into a private structure

This is a violation of the ToS. Additionally, we will implement a check to prevent AI from following a target into a privately owned structure.
Jedi in Private Houses Being Listed on Bounty Hunter Terminals

We are aware that it can be frustrating for our hunters around the galaxy to pull a mission, track and find their target is sitting AFK in a private structure. So we are going to look to implement a method that if a Jedi is AFK in a private structure they will not be listed on the Bounty Hunter Terminals. When the Jedi exits the structure, their mission will again be listed on the terminals.










~The SWGEmu Team

[avimeso]

I have no issues with this. Seems reasonable.

[djpwnz]

Am i missing something here? I thought this post was suppose to be about how we got to this point. Like why are these changes happening? I would hope based on the community feedback that has already happened today you will not be pushing this to Finalizer without really thinking who this is affecting. As for the change to pulling the mobs inside a house- those players should be banned, as it is a violation of TOS.

[SoUncool]

Thanks for the clarification, Lolindir. I gotta ask about the AFK Jedi in houses thing. I know they do it to bleed off VIS once they have it. Is there a way to stop that bleed once they're in houses? This just seems like a fairly blatant abuse of one game mechanic (private houses) to avoid another (consequences of gaining VIS).

[franklin920]

This is a terrible idea and have no idea we're these ideas came from or who put them in the queue, but how is this even needed? The only people who want group Jedis are the same people who farm the Acklay every night.

No reason not to be a Jedi now ladies and gents, since you can group with three other Jedi and run the game. This is the new ADK except Jedis don't have to wear armor

[TimAllen1337ttv]

We're in a taxi cab, and the driver just started driving without telling us where he's going. Just let me know if this is going to continue so I can roll my BH to Jedi.
Thanks.

[SLiFeR]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAAVk-gfYjI

Here's a video from pre-cu Eclipse server with the old GTEF Jedi/BH system. I understand there are limitations on what can be merged right now however this is what would be the best balance for both sides. (BH side wins in vid btw)

Until then the current system seems like a temporary fix, people need to relax for a change.

[Azkar]

This just seems like another needless nerf against BHs. Jedi had phases reduced to 1 week, they have anti-vis policies (which seem to be maybe under review?), no penalties for AFKing in houses / purposely trolling BHs, etc. Now there is no way to tell how strong a Jedi is when hunting them, who you are hunting, and they now also are going to dominate group content. Seems like the best option is just for everyone to roll Jedi at this point...at least I don't see any negatives you get for deciding to become one.

[Hakry]

Am i missing something here? I thought this post was suppose to be about how we got to this point. Like why are these changes happening? I would hope based on the community feedback that has already happened today you will not be pushing this to Finalizer without really thinking who this is affecting. As for the change to pulling the mobs inside a house- those players should be banned, as it is a violation of TOS.

Part of the issue is players have other players hold their bounty missions for 48 hours so they cannot get hunted. This is harder to do on Finalizer due to less characters available to each player, but still possible.

As for AI in private structure: It is for sure a ToS violation and they should be reported. All we will be doing is making it not possible for the AI to enter as an extra measure.



Thanks for the clarification, Lolindir. I gotta ask about the AFK Jedi in houses thing. I know they do it to bleed off VIS once they have it. Is there a way to stop that bleed once they're in houses? This just seems like a fairly blatant abuse of one game mechanic (private houses) to avoid another (consequences of gaining VIS).

The visibility bleed of is really slow and is earned at a much faster rate. Jedi do not AFK in houses to bleed of visibility. They AFK in houses so BHs do not want to pull their missions ever cause they are usually known for being a target that AFKs in a private house. This was a big issue on Basilisk and there were Jedi that Bounty Hunters ignored because it was a waste of time to even track them.



This is a terrible idea and have no idea we're these ideas came from or who put them in the queue, but how is this even needed? The only people who want group Jedis are the same people who farm the Acklay every night.

No reason not to be a Jedi now ladies and gents, since you can group with three other Jedi and run the game. This is the new ADK except Jedis don't have to wear armor


You may be misunderstanding the group visibility change. Jedi will only not receive visibility from the members of their group. Any other players or NPCs that are near them will still give visibility. So that means all of the other NPCs and players in the Geo cave. Not to mention, none of these changes were brought about by any certain groups of players. So that is just rumor mill and should be dropped.


This just seems like another needless nerf against BHs. Jedi had phases reduced to 1 week, they have anti-vis policies (which seem to be maybe under review?), no penalties for AFKing in houses / purposely trolling BHs, etc. Now there is no way to tell how strong a Jedi is when hunting them, who you are hunting, and they now also are going to dominate group content. Seems like the best option is just for everyone to roll Jedi at this point...at least I don't see any negatives you get for deciding to become one.


I am not sure if you did not read the whole post or misunderstanding it.

The very beginning of the post mentions the removal/change of the anti-visibility policies.
The end of the post says we are making so Jedi AFKing on Houses will not list on the terminals, so Bounty Hunters do not waste time hunting targets AFK in a house. They can log out and bleed visibility, they stay online in houses to troll Bounty Hunters.
Jedi was not changed as it comes to group content? I am not sure where you have pulled that one from. They will still receive visibility from EVERY player and NPC that is not in their group.

[dedaskalion]

Removal of phishing from ToS is great.

If BH missions are anonymous should consider having the mission names/creator/number (something) a constant for all BHs on the terminal so they can still engage in group hunts.

I see the screenshot says "rebel Jedi". Was that added by SWGEmu? If so, then it is a good change. Perhaps also some other clarifications, like "Rebel Jedi Knight" or "Imperial Jedi Padawan" etc. Could do a check vs. The targets force progression boxes. This would make it so bounty hunters who do want a challenge do not accidentally pull a fledgling Jedi Padawan mission, when in reality they wanted to fight a Jedi Master etc.

[SoUncool]

The visibility bleed of is really slow and is earned at a much faster rate. Jedi do not AFK in houses to bleed of visibility. They AFK in houses so BHs do not want to pull their missions ever cause they are usually known for being a target that AFKs in a private house. This was a big issue on Basilisk and there were Jedi that Bounty Hunters ignored because it was a waste of time to even track them.



Thanks for clarification. Is there any plan to *stop* the "gonna be logged in and AFK in my house forever" behavior? Even taking them off the terminals while they're in a private structure doesn't seem like that much of a great fix, tbh. It just rewards the behavior. Which, again, seems somewhat exploitative by using one game mechanic to bypass another.

[Lolindir]

Thanks for clarification. Is there any plan to *stop* the "gonna be logged in and AFK in my house forever" behavior? Even taking them off the terminals while they're in a private structure doesn't seem like that much of a great fix, tbh. It just rewards the behavior. Which, again, seems somewhat exploitative by using one game mechanic to bypass another.They can no longer troll BHs and hopefully we will be able to stop the bleeding of vis, so they will not be able to do that AFK, but have to actually log off, or play the game to get vis to lessen.

[Azkar]

I am not sure if you did not read the whole post or misunderstanding it.


The very beginning of the post mentions the removal/change of the anti-visibility policies.
The end of the post says we are making so Jedi AFKing on Houses will not list on the terminals, so Bounty Hunters do not waste time hunting targets AFK in a house. They can log out and bleed visibility, they stay online in houses to troll Bounty Hunters.
Jedi was not changed as it comes to group content? I am not sure where you have pulled that one from. They will still receive visibility from EVERY player and NPC that is not in their group.


No I read the post pretty clearly...

-The very beginning of the post mentions the removal/change of the anti-visibility policies.
It states "We are going to remove and/or revise this policy". I am curious to see what it gets revised to. Since it could still benefit the Jedi heavily.

-The end of the post says we are making so Jedi AFKing on Houses will not list on the terminals, so Bounty Hunters do not waste time hunting targets AFK in a house. They can log out and bleed visibility, they stay online in houses to troll Bounty Hunters.
"So we are going to look to implement a method" to me this reads as "They will troll you until this gets implemented, which we do not know how long it will take to do so." I have no issues with the 2nd part, you are all volunteers and things take time. However if the fix for the afk doesn't go in at the same time as everything else, then it just is more time that Jedi troll BHs with the benefit of we can't even ignore the ones that we know are purposely trolls.

-Jedi was not changed as it comes to group content? I am not sure where you have pulled that one from. They will still receive visibility from EVERY player and NPC that is not in their group.
It states "With this change Jedi will not gain visibility from players that they are grouped with. However, they are still open to gain visibility from all other players and NPC's." So now it is just going to be full jedi groups doing end game content. I mean just being in a large party that isn't giving them Vis is just making them hone in on end game group content as the "correct" class to be. Sure they will get it from a NPC, but how much vis does a krayt dragon give? Or any number of other end game creatures.

[SoUncool]

Appreciate it. Hopefully the small fix is all that's needed. Drastic changes aren't always the best solutions, etc.

[curse_two]

+1 these are sensible changes and I look forward to seeing how people take to it. Better to try and improve things than do nothing.

[Hakry]

Thanks for clarification. Is there any plan to *stop* the "gonna be logged in and AFK in my house forever" behavior? Even taking them off the terminals while they're in a private structure doesn't seem like that much of a great fix, tbh. It just rewards the behavior. Which, again, seems somewhat exploitative by using one game mechanic to bypass another.


We definitely can see that perspective on that however there is no simple way around that. It is their private structure and part of SWG is players having their own housing they can make private. If some other potential alternative comes to light it could be something we look into. However all of these changes were really minimal on the dev side of things and lots of alternatives are not. We still need to maintain our current scope of development. I personally have put more time into this then I would have liked and it has taken away from other things I was working on.


No I read the post pretty clearly...

-The very beginning of the post mentions the removal/change of the anti-visibility policies.
It states "We are going to remove and/or revise this policy". I am curious to see what it gets revised to. Since it could still benefit the Jedi heavily.

-The end of the post says we are making so Jedi AFKing on Houses will not list on the terminals, so Bounty Hunters do not waste time hunting targets AFK in a house. They can log out and bleed visibility, they stay online in houses to troll Bounty Hunters.
"So we are going to look to implement a method" to me this reads as "They will troll you until this gets implemented, which we do not know how long it will take to do so." I have no issues with the 2nd part, you are all volunteers and things take time. However if the fix for the afk doesn't go in at the same time as everything else, then it just is more time that Jedi troll BHs with the benefit of we can't even ignore the ones that we know are purposely trolls.

-Jedi was not changed as it comes to group content? I am not sure where you have pulled that one from. They will still receive visibility from EVERY player and NPC that is not in their group.
It states "With this change Jedi will not gain visibility from players that they are grouped with. However, they are still open to gain visibility from all other players and NPC's." So now it is just going to be full jedi groups doing end game content. I mean just being in a large party that isn't giving them Vis is just making them hone in on end game group content as the "correct" class to be. Sure they will get it from a NPC, but how much vis does a krayt dragon give? Or any number of other end game creatures.



So your first point, you are irritated over speculation of something that has not happened yet. The not clearly states This has given Jedi an unbalanced amount of protection when it comes to their visibility.


The second point, I do not know how long it will take but should be fairly simple. These are all simple changes or we would have not touched them at all. None of which are even live yet.


Third point, without mathing it all out for you. Visibility will stack up really quickly if they are attacking a target and other players are around and last I knew the Krayt Graveyard has had various groups of players out there. Even if they stop attacking they will just die, cause healing and force run also give visibility.

[Lolindir]

No I read the post pretty clearly...

-The very beginning of the post mentions the removal/change of the anti-visibility policies.
It states "We are going to remove and/or revise this policy". I am curious to see what it gets revised to. Since it could still benefit the Jedi heavily.The phising rule will be removed, completely when this is merged to Finalizer.


-The end of the post says we are making so Jedi AFKing on Houses will not list on the terminals, so Bounty Hunters do not waste time hunting targets AFK in a house. They can log out and bleed visibility, they stay online in houses to troll Bounty Hunters.
"So we are going to look to implement a method" to me this reads as "They will troll you until this gets implemented, which we do not know how long it will take to do so." I have no issues with the 2nd part, you are all volunteers and things take time. However if the fix for the afk doesn't go in at the same time as everything else, then it just is more time that Jedi troll BHs with the benefit of we can't even ignore the ones that we know are purposely trolls. The change have not been pushed to Finalizer yet. We are not done.


-Jedi was not changed as it comes to group content? I am not sure where you have pulled that one from. They will still receive visibility from EVERY player and NPC that is not in their group.
It states "With this change Jedi will not gain visibility from players that they are grouped with. However, they are still open to gain visibility from all other players and NPC's." So now it is just going to be full jedi groups doing end game content. I mean just being in a large party that isn't giving them Vis is just making them hone in on end game group content as the "correct" class to be. Sure they will get it from a NPC, but how much vis does a krayt dragon give? Or any number of other end game creatures.As stated on top, this is a two way door change. If it don't work as we wish, we can revert it. With that said, if they are in a group like you say, they will still get on the terminals, or do you expect them to not have others around wanting the same content? You will get 20 new marks if they have a full group and they take the mobs away from 4-5 other players. I bet one is enough with the time and amount of specials they will use.

[Azkar]

The phising rule will be removed, completely when this is merged to Finalizer.

The change have not been pushed to Finalizer yet. We are not done.

As stated on top, this is a two way door change. If it don't work as we wish, we can revert it. With that said, if they are in a group like you say, they will still get on the terminals, or do you expect them to not have others around wanting the same content? You will get 20 new marks if they have a full group and they take the mobs away from 4-5 other players. I bet one is enough with the time and amount of specials they will use.


I expect them to all be in a group, doing end game content holding that area. At least on finalizer, there is a reason so little Jedi are on the terms right now anyways. The ones that are, the majority purposely are (as seen by them trolling or being fully templated, etc). Unless I am just wrong and Jedi are dying hand over first by the tons of BHs (but the BHs forums seem to indicate otherwise).
I do appreciate the clarification though of "The phising rule will be removed, completely when this is merged to Finalizer.".




So your first point, you are irritated over speculation of something that has not happened yet. The not clearly states This has given Jedi an unbalanced amount of protection when it comes to their visibility.


The second point, I do not know how long it will take but should be fairly simple. These are all simple changes or we would have not touched them at all. None of which are even live yet.


Third point, without mathing it all out for you. Visibility will stack up really quickly if they are attacking a target and other players are around and last I knew the Krayt Graveyard has had various groups of players out there. Even if they stop attacking they will just die, cause healing and force run also give visibility.

-you are irritated over speculation of something that has not happened yet.
I mean ya. I am irritated at these proposed changes and they haven't happened yet. I just know they are bad for the game. It doesn't require them to have been implemented for me to know this. As such, I have skepticism on other "potential changes" as well.

-The second point, I do not know how long it will take but should be fairly simple. These are all simple changes or we would have not touched them at all. None of which are even live yet.
Correct. I even mentioned I don't fault any of the devs for however long it takes. I know full well how long it takes to make changes like these, test them, push them through all the env, QA to sign off on it, etc. We are all giving feedback on proposed changes, which even though haven't gone live, are still planned to.

-"Third point, ....."
You keep saying "other players are around." Why? They will just be invited into the group / not all end game content has tons of players just waiting around. The excuse of "other players " will give them vis... I don't think will plan out like how you expect. We have seen that *some* Jedi try to get around any rules / mechanics in this game. I don't think this will be different.


So let me also ask this: Why are these changes happening the way that they are? What is the philosophy behind them?

[jordan428]

You may be misunderstanding the group visibility change. Jedi will only not receive visibility from the members of their group. Any other players or NPCs that are near them will still give visibility. So that means all of the other NPCs and players in the Geo cave. Not to mention, none of these changes were brought about by any certain groups of players. So that is just rumor mill and should be dropped.

I'll admit this is where I have difficulty understanding. What is the motivation behind this change? What is it meant to accomplish? If I'm following what you're saying, it almost seems as if you're implying that this change has no impact whatsoever.

[gerd]

Everyone who played on Liberator knows where BH can go and why restrictions are needed.

Griefing of individuals has and will remain an issue in pockets of the community.

Maybe you didn't experience clone camping when missions didn't drop? Good for you.

These changes are fantastic.

[Trigues]

I like the changes! Can't imagine too much endgame content that grouping would cause an issue because anything camped will have people not in the same group.

I can see early Jedi grouping for XP. At some point they would need to split up though.

[gerd]

I like the changes! Can't imagine too much endgame content that grouping would cause an issue because anything camped will have people not in the same group.

I can see early Jedi grouping for XP. At some point they would need to split up though.

Right, Jedi being able to group with friends and not get visibility is the single greatest change here. Especially for new Jedi while grinding.

[BigdaddyOsburn]

Well guess im deleting my BH and making something else GG

These changes are garbage, QQ more Jedi scum.

[Insanic]

What is going on in this server.

[ghostm]

I'm all for changes but these ideas imo are not well thought out and will be a detriment to the player BH base.

It's your server and it's a test server but I have to say I'm disappointed and in my humble opinion you're allowing Jedi to be more care bear

If the goal is to prevent people from holding missions, remove the cap of 5 ppl holding missions.

The only good thing in this change is removal of the phishing clause.

[spawn0again]

really would be a game killer for me, jedi is supposed to be difficult, but once mastered almost unstoppable. but i feel you're bashing on the BH making it far to easy for people to be jedi when they dont know how to play the role. jedi should be a struggle, and i will happily do that struggle. this is almost nge pick jedi crap.

[Achilliesii]

Where can I sign up to help unofficially assign priority to the backlog or the ability to jump it with fresh ideas?

[avimeso]

The phising rule will be removed, completely when this is merged to Finalizer.

The change have not been pushed to Finalizer yet. We are not done.

As stated on top, this is a two way door change. If it don't work as we wish, we can revert it. With that said, if they are in a group like you say, they will still get on the terminals, or do you expect them to not have others around wanting the same content? You will get 20 new marks if they have a full group and they take the mobs away from 4-5 other players. I bet one is enough with the time and amount of specials they will use.

If its a simple toggle i think you guys should push it next week and see how it goes? Give it a trial perioid. like i said in first reply seems fine to me. Let those people test it. think honestly its just people over reacting.

when the seeker returns from searching for jedi on the planet will it notify the bh the exact credits received for kill or just name? will the mission update in datapad or just via system message?

[CanderousOrdo]

If I wanna troll a BH why would I not just AFK on the roof of a house so Im technically outside by game standards. Id still be on the terminals then but still protected by a house.

[shilo]

This is a huge nerf for BH, and I dont think you guys can see just how much of a nerf it is. I had a BH for a large swathe of Basilisk, and one thing I came to realize is that BH really get to know the servers Jedi. Who likes to run away, who is always near a private structure, who camp in the DWB bunker, who is super hard to kill, and who is squishy and easy to kill.

Now that we have no idea who we are fighting against, we need to waste a whole bunch of time to figure our who are target is. We need to go to the spynet dude, get out of town, launch the probe droid, wait for it, pray it doesn't get eaten by a space slug a bunch of times, than travel to said planet, launch our seeker droid. Than, and only than do we know who we are fighting.

This is especially a huge nerf for ranged BH who are already heavily gimped against Jedi. This only incentivizes all BH to become TKM or Fencer BH, so that they have a good solid chance to kill whoever there mark is. On Basilisk I was a carbineer BH, and I specialized in hunting the squishy Padawan's. I could not kill anyone else as 85% saberblock made it near impossible to kill them.

[HackerEd]

Not in support of these changes.... they seem to be out of the blue, possibly to cater to the group of new jedi who dont know how to play their class.... which is already supposed to be a hard class to play and rare in the galaxy.

Instead it seems most people have an alt thats rushing jedi, despite not knowing the details of how to reduce vis, or fight a BH upon confrontation.Trained by a master... you know how Star wars told the story... The jedi that do know how to play their class have mentioned to me they don't agree with the changes, and already are receiving the benefit of sped up village process, while being safe guarded because it's apparently so hard to be a jedi. AS IT SHOULD BE. Being a jedi is not an easy thing just anyone can be, but some how we are now supporting holding everyones hand so they get a weapon who can cut through any armor with 0 resistance and allow them to group on end game content while creating no vis.... we saying this is now Combat upgrade where everyone can start as a jedi and be super safe doing so.

Its a very sad day.... I thought this was a pre cu server but apparently we just cater to the biggest population with no transparency, timeline, or input from its population of direction devs should be focusing.

I've always supported the SWGemu Devs and still do, but will say these changes while seemingly being shaded to help BHs do not... BHs sometimes need to group up to effectively take out a jedi, imagine being an MMO and making one profession a solo sport with its target being a prestige class....

There's no reason to protect jedis, theres no reason to hold their hands, the people that know how to play jedi will tell you. Unfortunately the cries of in-experienced players may be louder of those experienced.

But if we're just testing things and these are not permanent changes why not tell players? explain what we are testing say they could revert back. We likely cant do that cuz that would drop our population which is most important....

Respectively,
Hacker_Ed

[Azkar]

I am still wondering about the philosophy / reasoning behind these changes. Like why are they being considered / what are they hoping to solve with these? I know several people have already asked but maybe there can be suggestions as how to solve them and in a way not to cause such harm. Like Jedi already had phases reduced from 3 weeks to 1 week. People pick to play Jedi, if you make that choice you agree to what that comes with.

[Kazhar]

The philosophy is really simple, catter for the jedi player base. I would really like to see the numbers on how many force sensitive characters we already have on the server, and going up month after month. 50% server jedi players or even more? place your bets

[Fissile]

bh need some love. Stop the nerf.

#FixWarcryQuitNerfing

[avimeso]

bh need some love. Stop the nerf.

#FixWarcryQuitNerfing

i really dont see how this is a nerf. its simply changing the method in which you obtain your targets information. I mean SOE implemented something similar during CU or just before CU.
warcry fix isnt far away so rejoice...

[Rischie]

As a long time jedi and a long time bh I think these changes ares stupid.

It’s a bh nerf and bh have already gotten a nerf since adks are gone.

[Qui-larek]

I would like to see some detail of the perceived issues that these changes are trying to fix

If I try and work it out from people posts and comments I hear on streams

Some Jedi do not like it that visibility is generated when grouping with friends and wish it removed
Some Jedi have experienced "griefing" which appears to be related to BH knowing the mission they are taking and frequency they can take it


I'm not sure I can see any BH that are asking for changes nor can I see any BH that are saying the proposed changes are good either, actually the contrary


Other thoughts on my mind
When players make the decision to turn their free FS toon into a Jedi the original concept was that you know what you are getting yourself in for - you get this extra slot use it wisely for your efforts
- You will end up in forced PvP, BH hunt Jedi and the player vs player is a key "selling point" over other MMO's
- Your toon will die (later removed)

Equally when BH took a Jedi's mission it was also similar
- The Jedi might be in a house (and I think bomb droids were used to get them out later on as the triggering of the tef caused them to be forcibly exited from the building)
- The Jedi might be on the corvette (I think a sytem message was added to the seekers to show this)
- The Jedi might be in the enclaves which you cannot enter
- The Jedi might be sitting afk for 20hrs a day in their sorosub floating in space unattackable in any way
- The Jedi might FR3 away from you and you cannot catch them

Thus when the BH took the mission giving the name was critical as it helped the BH know / learn the behavior of the Jedi, Oleh for example was know for sitting in his guild hall on Chimaera until there was a decent group of friend online which whom he could group (as group tef was a thing and it made him feel safe) The result was not many BH took his mission during the day but at night would know when pvp started it would be a fun messy situation


I must say these changes look to favor the Jedi and mitigate the risks they are assumed to be signing up for but the surrounding mechanics have changed so much over time until the "whole picture is clear" of the direction of the BH/Jedi/PvP relationship then piecemeal changes are probably only going to cause angst and frustration. More details about the overall vision might be a good move.

I do however lean towards the - there are risks and rewards of using a Jedi, get the rewards if you are prepared to accept the risks, its a playstyle and its not for everyone which is why we have 32 profession to mix and match. I make choices to have 2 crafters and no combat toons, its my choice and I can change it. If a Jedi doesn't like the mechanics they are free to surrender their skills, get off the terms forever and still engage in PvP or take up artisan or go smuggler but until they know the extend of the mechanics then its a difficult decision to make.

Players have to know the ruleset otherwise time invested is seen as time wasted, its why people get so annoyed with nerfs as a way to solve issues.

Maybe a Jedi can use the force persuasion tree to make their name invisible on the terms if they wish to invest the points in it, maybe that can use the force luck tree to avoid group vis - again if they wish to invest in it. Their are many was to solve problems if you put options on the table that people can choose to take if they feel its necessary, thats the beauty of our 250 skill point system

[sbp]

Equally when BH took a Jedi's mission it was also similar
- The Jedi might be in a house (and I think bomb droids were used to get them out later on as the triggering of the tef caused them to be forcibly exited from the building)
- The Jedi might be on the corvette (I think a sytem message was added to the seekers to show this)
- The Jedi might be in the enclaves which you cannot enter
- The Jedi might be sitting afk for 20hrs a day in their sorosub floating in space unattackable in any way
- The Jedi might FR3 away from you and you cannot catch them

Thus when the BH took the mission giving the name was critical as it helped the BH know / learn the behavior of the Jedi

Exactly, being a successful BH has a lot to do with knowing your enemy and having to play around the issues Qui-larek is describing is the part of a BH's life. Can be very frustrating but also rewarding when things goes your way.

A big part of the fun of being a BH is also entering a fight with a jedi you don't know so i see the point. But the payout you can get an indication on what his template is and that can give you an idea if your template even has a chance. Next is going into the fight and finding out how well he's geared/skilled. On bas jedi used to dot a specific pool. Knowing this in advance was crucial to prebuffs.

Taking notes, learning patterns etc was a big part of it and gave an extra layer to being the hunter. That is still possible but so is 5 bhs taking a friends mission and holding it. Everything is just more inconvinient and time consuming.

But if you want to go in that direction then you should adjust somewhere else. For instance making droids report faster, fail less or something to ease the life of the BH.

And if we are just experienting, lets try saber tef to avoid jedi going back into the house. That would be great. One of my best memories from live was stumbling upon a random jedi grinding in the mid of Endor when i was trying to locate my NPC bounty target. It was my first ever encounter with a jedi and i ended taking out both. Still remember the name Taras on chiemera

Regarding the group tef and the ways jedi will be able to abuse it (like Qui-larek is also correctly pointing out) i forsee a lot of occasions where the BH will have to give up the mission or having fight the jedi + his 15 fully decked PVP buddies - who in his right mind would do that?. Jedi has enough advantages on this server as it is.

And all of this is comming from someone who is already on his jedi grind

EDIT

I came to think of.... rebel jedi and imp jedi label on the mission. Is that for ranked jedi only? What about paddys or neutral jedi? Might make sense that when they enter FRS they get anonymous but the rest shows the name. Then at least you know that you are going against a full template ranked jedi

EDIT EDIT

No vis for group members i have no problem with - its probably a big buff to the casual player who perhaps values playing with his friends on the outskirts of Yavin 4 and roleplay but does not necessarily have to be a dedicated pvper or farming endgame content. For the latter this will have little to to no effect (they will get on the terms anyways and maybe wants to) where to the average player i can see a lot of benefit for this change.

[dedaskalion]

Lets have BH TEF transfer when the BH attacks the jedi so they can't just walk into a house. It looks like thats how it was intended to function originally anyway:

http://web.archive.org/web/20050303222037/http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Developers&message.id=57528

"Special Cases for Jedi and Bounty Hunters

The removal of TEF's will affect Jedi and Bounty hunters. Once a Bounty Hunter attacks a Jedi who he has a mission against, both the Bounty Hunter and the Jedi are forbidden from receiving a helpful action from any player. The Jedi and the Bounty Hunter can not be helped by anyone for the period of time after the attack begins."

[Vicktore Beskor]

At first glance this seems like hand holding for the Jedi and a nerf to BH as group hunting Jedi knights and Jedi masters was always a thing that was necessary because of the Jedi’s OP nature. It say this if they adjust loot drops for skill tapes and armor attachments and allow BH better terrain negotiation and better food management it would balance out. Hunting Jedi for m has always been my end game Challenge I can only hope they don’t make it so one sided that Knights and Master Jedi become out of reach for Master Bounty Hunters.All I ask is that those who are working on the game to think of that as well. I am looking forward to big game Jedi hunts.

[hybridtheory]

For as long as jedi exists people are gonna rush strait to it. People are going to want for nothing but it. Braindead move adding jedi to the server in the first place. Should have focused on improving the game.

When they added jedi they basically gave the server a brain tumor. Jedi will consume everything else about your server and has.

For as long as people have any idea how to unlock a jedi, for as long as it has any benefits at all, the server is going to be a jedi server. We have seen a dozen+ jedi servers come and go. Why would you repeat that?

[Azkar]

Another major issue I haven't seen mentioned is that these changes are just going to give Jedi free passes to get fully templated. Why care about vis when no BH can take your specific mission or knows what rank they are fighting? Just get fully templated with the power of anonymity! Why not just farm content as a group of Jedi since no vis! This is going to end up with all the Jedi being fully templated, and since no BH is going to be playing or participating, they will "turn off" this update but the damage of everyone being fully templated will already be done.

[Qui-larek]

For as long as jedi exists people are gonna rush strait to it. People are going to want for nothing but it. Braindead move adding jedi to the server in the first place. Should have focused on improving the game.

When they added jedi they basically gave the server a brain tumor. Jedi will consume everything else about your server and has.

For as long as people have any idea how to unlock a jedi, for as long as it has any benefits at all, the server is going to be a jedi server. We have seen a dozen+ jedi servers come and go. Why would you repeat that?

Update your sig mate
We have 2 chars
We have no ADK's

Not so sure about the multiple accounts - I hear to many cried in auction chat about 24/7 buff bots

[shilo]

For as long as jedi exists people are gonna rush strait to it. People are going to want for nothing but it. Braindead move adding jedi to the server in the first place. Should have focused on improving the game.

When they added jedi they basically gave the server a brain tumor. Jedi will consume everything else about your server and has.

For as long as people have any idea how to unlock a jedi, for as long as it has any benefits at all, the server is going to be a jedi server. We have seen a dozen+ jedi servers come and go. Why would you repeat that?

You misses the party then, Basilisk was up for 5 years before Jedi were possible.

[chebyo]

Makes perfect sense to me. Thank you for being pragmatic and bringing this up to a more modern standard.

[Pyjri]

Great summary by Larek. I had recalled knocking people out of a house by entering combat with them, a memory that has created some controversy in game because it is clearly not coded that way here (Jedi must fight back to get a TEF and will otherwise stay in their house or be safe to run in unabated). Memory can be a tricky thing almost 20 years loater, but the current experience feels very tailored to favor Jedi as it is without any further changes, and this update will only push it further in that direction.

[mesyouen]

+1. very good changes.

[peltaria]

Another nerf to BH...just like sony did.

Not gonna repeat what has already been said.

What is to stop a jedi leaving his house for 10 mins..his mission pops on the terms and some poor sod accepts it, then goes back in his house for another 20 hours? Same issue, bh gets pissed off yet again.

And why should a jedi's house be private? In case he is on the toilet or getting undressed for bed? This is a game ffs, if a jedi wants somewhere private he can log off and not troll bh's.

Imo, if a bh has a jedi's mission and they are in a house atk or afk a bh should be able to enter or blow the door open with a grenade/rocket laucher/bomb droid. Kinda make sense given the technology that is in this universe.

Make a bh and play it for 6 months Lolindir, that will give you all the information you need on what changes need to be made.

[TongFei Kasamatsu]

Thanks for clarification. Is there any plan to *stop* the "gonna be logged in and AFK in my house forever" behavior? Even taking them off the terminals while they're in a private structure doesn't seem like that much of a great fix, tbh. It just rewards the behavior. Which, again, seems somewhat exploitative by using one game mechanic to bypass another.

I absolutely agree.

My $.02 is that a Private residence wouldn't stop Vader, nor a canon bounty hunter, or an IRL Law Enforcement with a warrant. A Jedi logged in and in a private residence should open the residence to being sliced by a slicer and access permitted to any BH with the mission. It should take 5 mins or something before allowing access, but a Jedi on the terminals, sitting in a house should be hunt-able. It should take a master smuggler and maybe once MBH skills are actually viable, only allowed to MBH. But the future goal should be to allow no safe place for more than several minutes if the Jedi is logged in.


Another nerf to BH...just like sony did.

Not gonna repeat what has already been said.

What is to stop a jedi leaving his house for 10 mins..his mission pops on the terms and some poor sod accepts it, then goes back in his house for another 20 hours? Same issue, bh gets pissed off yet again.

And why should a jedi's house be private? In case he is on the toilet or getting undressed for bed? This is a game ffs, if a jedi wants somewhere private he can log off and not troll bh's.

Imo, if a bh has a jedi's mission and they are in a house atk or afk a bh should be able to enter or blow the door open with a grenade/rocket laucher/bomb droid. Kinda make sense given the technology that is in this universe.

Make a bh and play it for 6 months Lolindir, that will give you all the information you need on what changes need to be made.

Preaching to the choir my friend.

[pbanka824]

I'd like to see Faction pets be unusable on either side during a BH fight. Rebels don't have ATSTs so it seems unfair, for the Rebels and the BHs.

[pbanka824]

<snip>
make a bh and play it for 6 months lolindir, that will give you all the information you need on what changes need to be made.
</snip>


Walk a mile in our shoes...

[Rischie]

Walk a mile in our shoes...

Agreed, especially not knowing who your mark is.

I was a bh first, but I also played jedi. I have walked a mile in both shoes and this is detrimental to bh.

Specifically the anon jedi and mission payout. These changes seem grossly out of touch.

[Skyjogger]

I think these changes are needed and fantastic the fact that Jedi got vis from group member's always bugged me like I'm a jedi and my buddies a jedi and I'm gunna report him to the imps that made zero sense. If your a BH it should be a hard target to bag a jedi isn't it alot better brag if you get a elusive target then if you get a waypoint direct to their location.
Reminds me of EVE online the way some of yall want it bagging noobs mining in high spec is not very good gaming imho but bagging a long time high skill player in low sec with billions of cargo now that's something to brag about.

I don't understand why everyone wants to make jedi weaker they are a force to be reckoned with literally and you wouldn't even have a world to have fun in if they didn't exist. BH should be hard it should involve tracking and using your noggin and figuring out strategies to get your mark.
In real life if your a BH you don't get instance location of your mark you have to go and search and ask and talk to people find info and maybe stake out an area that sounds so much cooler to me than getting a waypoint and killing a noob jedi.

A++++++ for changes bringing some new warm bodies to the game because I'm starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel.

Devs yall are ****ing amazing I'm sorry you have to put up with so many loud minority voices the real players love these changes and welcome new tests on this test server.

[SoUncool]

Don't bring real life into this. In real life, a bounty hunter is told who they're hunting right off the bat, if not given an entire dossier on who they are by their employer.

This isn't a nerf to Jedi. They're just as strong as ever. This is a nerf to BH, who were weaker than the Jedi to begin with.

[Rischie]

I think these changes are needed and fantastic the fact that Jedi got vis from group member's always bugged me like I'm a jedi and my buddies a jedi and I'm gunna report him to the imps that made zero sense. If your a BH it should be a hard target to bag a jedi isn't it alot better brag if you get a elusive target then if you get a waypoint direct to their location.
Reminds me of EVE online the way some of yall want it bagging noobs mining in high spec is not very good gaming imho but bagging a long time high skill player in low sec with billions of cargo now that's something to brag about.

I don't understand why everyone wants to make jedi weaker they are a force to be reckoned with literally and you wouldn't even have a world to have fun in if they didn't exist. BH should be hard it should involve tracking and using your noggin and figuring out strategies to get your mark.
In real life if your a BH you don't get instance location of your mark you have to go and search and ask and talk to people find info and maybe stake out an area that sounds so much cooler to me than getting a waypoint and killing a noob jedi.

A++++++ for changes bringing some new warm bodies to the game because I'm starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel.

Devs yall are ****ing amazing I'm sorry you have to put up with so many loud minority voices the real players love these changes and welcome new tests on this test server.

The group vis is fine. But the anonymity of it destroys the class from the ground up. You have to think of this from a mechanic perspective. You really dont know what you are talking about.

It's also pretty concerning that the devs didn't realize this either.

You have jedi on finalizer.

Bh now have limited psgs. A jedi can keep a bh from pulling a psg from a crate by keeping them in combat with fr3+ saber throw so the bh has to either run to water and get out of combat if they run out of inventory space. Jedi as of right now will also be bale to use dots unless something drastic changes I.E see my post in the jedi forums about auto attack acc + 1h lunge acc paired with stims. It becomes infinitly harder for a bh to kill a jedi now, so they will need to group.

Devs "Lets take that away so they cant group."

Hello you guys even play the game?

https://c.tenor.com/mVzfWdrtYLAAAAAC/what-jackie-chan.gif

If you make these changes then you have to bring nerfs to jedi, I.E stone knives can no longer be used by jedi etc.

[shilo]

I agree, the anonymous missions is a game breaker for BH.

[tanahara]

Jedi can play with people who wouldn't rat them out that makes sense and excited for considering I play with a friend constantly.
Bounty hunters have to investigate or actually Hunt to know their target vs look at the name lol... that's pretty much exactly the way it seemed to be in the sw universe so makes sense.

Glad the devs are setting up two way door options on testing out improvements. Excited to see how the swgemu project keeps evolving!

[Tyrenio]

Jedi can play with people who wouldn't rat them out that makes sense and excited for considering I play with a friend constantly.
Bounty hunters have to investigate or actually Hunt to know their target vs look at the name lol... that's pretty much exactly the way it seemed to be in the sw universe so makes sense.

Glad the devs are setting up two way door options on testing out improvements. Excited to see how the swgemu project keeps evolving!This thread (and the others) have already spelled out why the name is crucial to DOING the hunting.

[shilo]

Jedi can play with people who wouldn't rat them out that makes sense and excited for considering I play with a friend constantly.
Bounty hunters have to investigate or actually Hunt to know their target vs look at the name lol... that's pretty much exactly the way it seemed to be in the sw universe so makes sense.

Glad the devs are setting up two way door options on testing out improvements. Excited to see how the swgemu project keeps evolving!

Tell me you don't BH without telling me you don't BH.

[Pyjri]

As many others have already pointed out, anonymizing Jedi does nothing but add time into every bounty, rather than what could be avoided through selectivity on the terminals. The burden on BH is enough already, this is just adding insult to injury.

[Tyrenio]

Another question… if this is enabled, can anyone chime in on what the criteria is for whether to keep it or not? I hope it’s not just “whatever gets us fewer CSR tickets”…

[Tyrenio]

Here’s an idea: if we’re worried about Jedi being griefed by people following them around and intentionally landing on the terms for BHs lying in wait, why not utilize the same “kill list” that was used by fight clubbers: if a Jedi is on your kill list, they do not appear on the terminals. You have already outlawed fight clubbing for Jedi, the same would apply to BHs. This way you can’t repeatedly farm the same Jedi without going after others (for some time period), and it’s against TOS to intentionally cycle your kill list to get them to pop up again.

[shilo]

Here’s an idea: if we’re worried about Jedi being griefed by people following them around and intentionally landing on the terms for BHs lying in wait, why not utilize the same “kill list” that was used by fight clubbers: if a Jedi is on your kill list, they do not appear on the terminals. You have already outlawed fight clubbing for Jedi, the same would apply to BHs. This way you can’t repeatedly farm the same Jedi without going after others (for some time period), and it’s against TOS to intentionally cycle your kill list to get them to pop up again.

This is a good idea

[Grija]

This is a good idea

This is actually one of the best ideas I've heard yet. And I thought I had some decent ideas.a

[rhtlvp]

Removing the possibility to team up to hunt a jedi while making bounties anonymous AND with a static value on terminals is a huge nerf, in particular for new bounty hunters and for those who are brave (or fool) enough to go Master BH, since Master BH is at a severe disadvantage against a full template jedi compared to melee hybrids.
And frankly, Master BH is already bad enough that, if anything, it would be probably better to add incentives to be a Master, rather than making it an even less viable option with changes such as these.
Master BH in particular is really not supposed to fight full template FRS jedi unless they have excellent gear and are very experienced.. how are they supposed to get there? At the same time, when you're a good Bounty Hunter and you're geared up, you usually don't want to waste time hunting padawans.

It would be easier to find a solution if we knew what the goal is:
-Prevent BH buddies and alts from keeping their jedi pal safe? This change would do more harm then good, because they will simply have a BH terminal in their player city, get bounties and spam tab until they find their buddy (this is how they exploited it on live with anon bounties).

-Prevent toxic behaviour, people pestering the same target over and over? If people want to be *******s and grief, there are a million other ways to do it, both PvE and PvP, even more if it's a perma overt target like FRS Jedi and they should be dealt with disciplinary actions and by improving the community as much as possible.
And about hunting the same target.. being on the bounty terminals is your own choice, just like being overt.

-Make it more fair for the jedi? May I ask why? Being hunted is supposed to be a punishment for showing off your powers and/or using the advantage jedi is supposed to have (and should have). Raph Koster's plan was for Jedi to be so cool that eventually you wouldn't be able to resist and you'd just show it off with your friends and when you did that, npc bounty hunters would start showing up, each more difficult then the rest, until you'd get Boba Fett (almost impossible to kill, but a very skilled and well prepared jedi could stand a chance) and if you defeated him you'd get Darth Vader in person, you would die and you'd get to roll a new jedi character while your old jedi would stay as non-playable blue glowie you could collect and summon for bragging rights and coolnes.

[Hakry]

To any new comers to this thread please be sure to see: https://www.swgemu.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244932


Where we are discussing ideas for the potential changes further.

[Lolindir]

To keep things in one place, I'll closing this one.