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Vision of Non-combat Zones (updated 03/10/2005)   [ Edited ]
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Glzmo
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Glzmo

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I was thinking about several problems in SWG that arise like people getting killed while loading into a shuttle- or starport without the ability to defend themselves, being image designed or stat migrated inside a tent and attacked which stops the image design action, sitting in the medcenter and getting killed while being treated by a doctor healed, people getting clonecamped in the clonecenter, Jedi and other people showing off and dueling inside starports.
1. Institution of non-combat zones
In these zones, players and NPCs alike would not be able to initiate combat at all. No duels, no special forces vs. special forces combat, no TEF combat whatsoever.
Non-combat zones include:
- Starports
- The landing Area around shuttleports
- Clonecenters
- Medcenters
- Image design salons
- Cantinas
- Taverns
- other public buildings in cities (theaters, capitol buildings, etc.)
There is already code for players not being able to initiate combat in place on multipassenger ships, so I believe it could be adapted for non-combat zones with relative ease as well. Or, even better, just use the current code for (the broken) battlefields to create non-combat zones, as battlefields are essentially non-combat zones rigth now anyway.
2. Non-Combat Zones cannot be entered while in combat
This prevents people from fleeing into non-combat zones and thus breaking combat and also prevents people to bring combat into these zones.
The barring of combatants for such zones could work in a similar fashion to not allowing people with TEF or unauthorized people to enter private buildings or the village of Aurilia.
3. Post-combat cool off timer before you could enter a non-combat zone again
This timer prevents people abusing non-combat zone boundaries to quickly sweep out of them, get off a few shots, /peace, jump back to safety and repeat the procedure.
For the cool off timer, the code for the timer similar to the one for storing pets after combat could be used.
4. People in non-combat zones cannot affect people outside these zones and vice versa
This prevents people outside of non-combat zones from attacking people that are inside non-combat zones. It also prevents abuse of the non-combat zone boundary like medics, doctors and combat medics inside the non-combat zone healing combatants on the outside without being vulnerable to attack, trades from inside non-combat zones to the outside and other possible abuses of the non-combat zone.
To achieve this, zone status checking from current (disabled) battlefields could be used. The code would have to be modified so people inside the non-combat zones would be able to perform non-combat actions like healing to others inside the zone.
5. Special Forces inside non-combat zones are not visible as such on the map
This prevents people from camping the exit spots of these areas because they see a red dot inside and can target it. Targeting via 'TAB' (default key) shouldn't be possible for those either.
Code from current battlefields, where everything inside (and outside, for the poeple inside a non-combat zone) turns white could be used.
6. Safe travel routes
Some may have noticed that there are many roads and paths on each planet. These should be made non-combat zones as well. However, they should only prevent people on the roads from being attacked by player characters, non-player characters and NPCs while traveling on them. This will allow non-combat characters to travel safely on main travel routes and really make these main travel routes useful and not just some weird things on the map.
If you are already in combat, you will still be able to enter them and finish combat. This is a contrast to the other non-combat zones to prevent these paths to block the way for people in combat.
Thoughts: I do not think non-combat zones would be overly hard to implement (especially since the code for such things is already in place in other parts of the game and could be reused), it would get rid of many problems, annoyances and forms of griefing as well as make the game more enjoyable and give it a more 'mature' feel.

Message Edited by Glzmo on 03-10-2005 03:44 AM

Message Edited by Glzmo on 07-13-2005 02:48 PM

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"I am the Senate."
GLZMO - visionaire extraordinaire, self-proclaimed guardian and enforcer of roleplay and Star Wars continuity in Star Wars Galaxies
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11-09-2004 02:43 AM  

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Re: Non-combat Zones   [ Edited ]
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Oblox
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Yes the principle is good but how do you handle overts or Gtef'ers running inside to hide?

You cant ban overts as this harms FRS knights, using a TEF block would stop gtef'ers but any system like this will be abused for PVP.

Message Edited by Oblox on 11-09-2004 12:32 PM

~ Ani'a L'o ~
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"Wandering the galaxy since November 5, 2003"
11-09-2004 03:36 AM  

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Re: Non-combat Zones
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DND_Cas
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I have to agree with Oblox here.  How would you stop this being abused?
 
The 30 second loadup timer is already abused in pvp hugely to stop basecountdowns and that was never intended.
 
If you could explain how you could stop it being abused by pvp'ers then I'd think you would be onto something. 

Previously: Master Ranger/Master Fencer
Now: Master Tailor/Merchant/Commando
11-09-2004 03:59 AM  

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Re: Non-combat Zones   [ Edited ]
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Glzmo
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Glzmo

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DND_Cas wrote:
I have to agree with Oblox here.  How would you stop this being abused?
 
The 30 second loadup timer is already abused in pvp hugely to stop basecountdowns and that was never intended.
This wouldn't be the case here, as the areas mentioned aren't where bases can be built.
 
If you could explain how you could stop it being abused by pvp'ers then I'd think you would be onto something.
Of course, people could hide in there, but only if they aren't in combat. If they were in combat, they wouldn't be able to enter these zones in the first place (just like you cannot enter houses and such with vehicles). If they are overt and inside these zones, they couldn't be attacked and couldn't attack others, which is okay in my book. They have to leave sometime, so if you're patient enough they will eventually come out to you. Or you join them inside and provoke them to chase you out
I don't see the abuse factor here, as the person in the non-combat zone wouldn't be able to harm anybody or anything and couldn't be harmed either. Once the person steps out of it, of course, he or she can, but can also be attacked at the same time. None of this is worse than people clonecamping and killing people who load into a zone before they can even react, as far as I am concerned.

Perhaps we could find a better solution still, feel free to contribute.

Message Edited by Glzmo on 11-09-2004 04:46 AM

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"I am the Senate."
GLZMO - visionaire extraordinaire, self-proclaimed guardian and enforcer of roleplay and Star Wars continuity in Star Wars Galaxies
Click here to read and support these Visions to improve and possibly save SWG!
"If you think somebody with the Smuggler Profession in SWG is a smuggler you likely think an ox is a full bull."
11-09-2004 04:37 AM  

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Re: Non-combat Zones
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DND_Cas
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I'll give you a few examples of how it could be abused:
  • Medics using them as safe areas and healing overt players without any reprocussions for thier actions as the TEF won't have any affect in safezones.
  • Jedi using these area's to aviod Bounty Hunters or using them as restbite areas to recharge thier force bars.
  • Ranged players using the line between safe and non-safe areas to quickly get a few shots off, peace and then retreat to the safe area where they can't be attacked.
  • Bounty hunters and smugglers using bomb droids in the same way.  Once in combat they can't call them but since you can't be in combat in a safe area they can keep calling them and doing huge amounts of damage.  An I win button when done in large numbers basically. 

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Now: Master Tailor/Merchant/Commando
11-09-2004 04:54 AM  

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Re: Non-combat Zones (updated 11/09/2004)
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SWG_Bobo
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First of all, I dont see anything wrong with a little dualing around the spaceports. Ive always found that to be one of the most interesting things in this game.
 
Second, I thought there used to be a thing that if you were TEF that you could not enter a building?
 
If we put a timer while getting off a ship, which i think they just implemented but not sure, this should eliminate the problem people getting killed while exiting a ship.
 
Far as getting killed in a medical center, well, war is hell.  If you dont like being killed at any time other then the time that you desire then perhaps this game isnt for you.
 
Sometimes having to watch your back for enemies even while not currently fighting I think is part of the roleplay.
 
Last thing i have to say, If you cant stand the heat, dont get a TEF or go ovart.

May the force be with you...always.
How does a wise Jedi become wise?

He asks questions!

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11-09-2004 04:59 AM  

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Re: Non-combat Zones
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Oblox
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Id say the biggest overall problem is the way combat works in the GCW.

Overt vs Overt fine

Overt vs covert (tef) depends on circumstances, in GCW terms healing a teffed player passes on the tef so people can sometimes not realise and be attacked. In large combat GTEF is abused alot so people can have a free hit and with warcry bugs and things like CM's using area poison/disease this can be a huge problem. It also effects jedi as GTEF system is totally screwed in the BH vs jedi conflict too.

Solution, remove gtef and make tef's visible to all so you know not to trade/heal group with them unless prepared.

Safe zones like you state should stop all combat being triggered and stop combatants from entering, combined with a fixed tef system this would work and hopefully be fair to both sides.

~ Ani'a L'o ~
Dune Sea Desperadoes
Lightsaber ~ ()(ts)() - Tri Sun Shipping ~ YT-2400
"Wandering the galaxy since November 5, 2003"
11-09-2004 04:59 AM  

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Re: Non-combat Zones
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DeathToVader
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This is a bad idea.  If you have zones where people can hide , thats where they will run to, to escape or hide from pvp while overt.  If you go overt or get a tef prepare to be attacked and/or killed. It will create WAY more problems than we have already




Alahna Stargazer (NRA)


11-09-2004 05:10 AM  

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Re: Non-combat Zones
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Timec
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Timec
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DND_Cas wrote:
I'll give you a few examples of how it could be abused:
  • Medics using them as safe areas and healing overt players without any reprocussions for thier actions as the TEF won't have any affect in safezones.
  • Jedi using these area's to aviod Bounty Hunters or using them as restbite areas to recharge thier force bars.
  • Ranged players using the line between safe and non-safe areas to quickly get a few shots off, peace and then retreat to the safe area where they can't be attacked.
  • Bounty hunters and smugglers using bomb droids in the same way.  Once in combat they can't call them but since you can't be in combat in a safe area they can keep calling them and doing huge amounts of damage.  An I win button when done in large numbers basically. 



In that case...perhaps they could do something like a post combat timer, like they use for creature calling.  If you we in combat, you have to wait for X amount of seconds or minutes to be able to enter the zone.  Now the harder part would be about the medics inside...  If they could make a code to avoid them from healing others outside the zone, it could help.  Bomb droids...really good point.  That's the one aspect that I'm definately stumped on.  Also the jedi part too.  But he/she has to leave sometime, right?  Same thing as the private house stories, just that it'll happen more often.

11-09-2004 05:13 AM  

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Re: Non-combat Zones
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ScreaminTomcat
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If that would happen...Meleers would be playing catch-the-kiter for a while. Med centers and ect are good for going inside so they can go inside and you can kill them. Elevators on the other hand....Can't use in combat would be great.

>Stevo Colety>
Not a FOTM Pikeman
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11-09-2004 05:18 AM  

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Re: Non-combat Zones
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Timec
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Timec
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ScreaminTomcat wrote:
 Elevators on the other hand....Can't use in combat would be great.



Ahah!  Good point.
11-09-2004 05:27 AM  

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Re: Non-combat Zones   [ Edited ]
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Glzmo
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Glzmo

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DND_Cas wrote:
I'll give you a few examples of how it could be abused:
  • Medics using them as safe areas and healing overt players without any reprocussions for thier actions as the TEF won't have any affect in safezones.

There should be code put in that would prevent people from inside a non-combat zone affecting people outside of the zone and vice versa, no matter if crafting actions, combat actions, healing actions, trading or else. Perhaps use a modified line of sight code for that.

  • Jedi using these area's to aviod Bounty Hunters or using them as restbite areas to recharge thier force bars.

This might happen, but the Jedi would have to leave the zone sometime anyway. And if authorities don't allow combat (let's say 'weapon disabling mechanisms' are build into these zones for RP purposes, then they don't allow combat. No exceptions for bounty hunters, Jedi or crafters. Period. It's like in KOTOR on Manaan, where the Sith and the Republic Soldiers can't fight each other even though they are itching to do so, as the authorities would not allow it.

  • Ranged players using the line between safe and non-safe areas to quickly get a few shots off, peace and then retreat to the safe area where they can't be attacked.

This could pose a real problem. A cool off timer before a player would be able to enter a non-combat zone after being in combat could be helpful in this case.

  • Bounty hunters and smugglers using bomb droids in the same way.  Once in combat they can't call them but since you can't be in combat in a safe area they can keep calling them and doing huge amounts of damage.  An I win button when done in large numbers basically.

Yes, bomb droids. A cool-off timer would alleviate this as well, altough they would still have the option of first strike, but that's what the bomb droids are build for in my opinion, anyways.


Message Edited by Glzmo on 11-09-2004 05:34 AM

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"I am the Senate."
GLZMO - visionaire extraordinaire, self-proclaimed guardian and enforcer of roleplay and Star Wars continuity in Star Wars Galaxies
Click here to read and support these Visions to improve and possibly save SWG!
"If you think somebody with the Smuggler Profession in SWG is a smuggler you likely think an ox is a full bull."
11-09-2004 05:33 AM  

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Re: Non-combat Zones
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DND_Cas
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Timec wrote:


DND_Cas wrote:
I'll give you a few examples of how it could be abused:
  • Medics using them as safe areas and healing overt players without any reprocussions for thier actions as the TEF won't have any affect in safezones.
  • Jedi using these area's to aviod Bounty Hunters or using them as restbite areas to recharge thier force bars.
  • Ranged players using the line between safe and non-safe areas to quickly get a few shots off, peace and then retreat to the safe area where they can't be attacked.
  • Bounty hunters and smugglers using bomb droids in the same way.  Once in combat they can't call them but since you can't be in combat in a safe area they can keep calling them and doing huge amounts of damage.  An I win button when done in large numbers basically. 



In that case...perhaps they could do something like a post combat timer, like they use for creature calling.  If you we in combat, you have to wait for X amount of seconds or minutes to be able to enter the zone.  Now the harder part would be about the medics inside...  If they could make a code to avoid them from healing others outside the zone, it could help.  Bomb droids...really good point.  That's the one aspect that I'm definately stumped on.  Also the jedi part too.  But he/she has to leave sometime, right?  Same thing as the private house stories, just that it'll happen more often.



The damage they can do inside the zone matters as well.  For example

  • A CM using ranged healing ability from inside the buffer zone can heal people far outside the zone.
  • A CM using mind heal could keep healing someone on the edge of the no combat zone with no reprocussions
  • A medic could use drag to move an incapped player inside the zone where they couldn't be death blowed.

All adding the safezones would do is move the majority of combat to "just outside" these zones which is really not what we want at all.  PvP is far too concentrated around starports as it is. 

Also the Jedi thing is a problem.  Its usually when the Jedi runs out of "force power" that they are in danger.  Giving them lots of safezones will mean they will hunt around the safezone knowing they can simply run in when being chased - this means we would have visible jedi again which alot of the community argued against. 

The problem with this idea is that to counter the exploits you would have to have lots of rules involved.  Once its got to lots of special cases generally its not as useful an idea as originally thought. 

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Now: Master Tailor/Merchant/Commando
11-09-2004 05:39 AM  

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Re: Non-combat Zones (updated 11/09/2004)   [ Edited ]
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Glzmo
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Glzmo

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Thanks for all the replies. I updated and changed the main post a bit after I considered some of the responses. 
 
Keep the discussion going so we can put up a good concept for the devs to consider!

Message Edited by Glzmo on 11-09-2004 06:12 AM

=======xgggggggggggggggggggggggg)
"I am the Senate."
GLZMO - visionaire extraordinaire, self-proclaimed guardian and enforcer of roleplay and Star Wars continuity in Star Wars Galaxies
Click here to read and support these Visions to improve and possibly save SWG!
"If you think somebody with the Smuggler Profession in SWG is a smuggler you likely think an ox is a full bull."
11-09-2004 06:06 AM  

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Re: Non-combat Zones (updated 11/09/2004)
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GiladSunitek
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Glzmo wrote:
I was thinking about several problems in this game like people getting killed while loading into a shuttle- or starport without the ability to defend themselves, being image designed or stat migrated inside a tent and attacked which stops the image design action, sitting in the medcenter and getting killed while being treated by a doctor healed, people getting clonecamped in the clonecenter, Jedi and other people showing off and dueling inside starports.
 
The best solution would be to institute non-combat zones. In these zones, players and NPCs alike would not be able to initiate combat at all (No duels, no overt vs. overt combat, no TEF combat whatsoever), attackable by neither NPCs or players in- or outside these non-combat zones and could not enter them while already in combat
There is already code for players not being able to initiate combat in place on multipassenger ships, so I believe it could be adapted for non-combat zones with relative ease. Also, the barring of combatants for such zones could work in a similar fashion to not allowing unauthorized people in private buildings or into the village of Aurilia.
 
Non-combat zones would include:
 
- Starports
- The landing Area around shuttleports
- Clonecenters
- Medcenters
- Image design salons
- Cantinas
- Taverns
- other public buildings in cities (theaters, capitol buildings, etc.)
 
I don't think non-combat zones would be overly hard to implement (especially since the code for such things is already in place in other parts of the game and could be reused), it would get rid of many problems, annoyances and forms of griefing as well as make the game more enjoyable and give it a more 'mature' feel.

Message Edited by Glzmo on 11-09-2004 04:48 AM


There is a problem with this happening and not just on one server. But... Non-combat zones are not the answer, something that would deter this activity would be far better than just ruling it out (we don't want to ruin anyones fun, right?).
 
The best way i can see for fixing these camping problems would be to institute no weapon policies in and around the buildings in question, to make this work the defending NPC's of the city/planet need to be able to confiscate weapons (or fine heavily in the case of a true unarmed(no VK) attack) upon them being drawn or in the case of Unarmed the start of an attack. The confiscated weaponry could then be returned to the player in say 1 day(no more uber weapons being drawn in cities methinks :smileyvery-happy. I myself am not a PVP'er but i know that some players find this very attractive and fun therefore it should be addressed fairly, maybe make an arena building for cities where people can duel or PVP without the harrassment from the cops.
 
Adjusting timers will never work as the griever will just wait for expiry before jumping you and sometimes the timers still run out before you can even move (gotta hate that lag at busy starports).
 
My first experience of PVP was enough to make me not like it, but unlike some i am very open to both sides views. the idea of confiscating weapons would make a very good deterrant for PVP in public places like starports, cantina's and suchlike. How often would you like to be without your main weapon? Also it would make the cities more believable as less weapons would be in players hands when in cities. This would not outlaw PVP in cities but it would make cities safer in general, besides if you are in your own player city, don't you have a house there that you can hide in (Privacy set to on)? Ever thought of using it to escape PVP?
 
Just thought i should add my suggestion to this thread.
11-09-2004 06:28 AM  

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