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Eceen wrote:
You make a damn good case here AO. I will agree some form of decay is needed, as much as I hate seeing a perfect machine that I built finally break down. Besides it wont hurt my business any, my droids are fairly cheap already, and my prices would drop by about 5-10k I think. Although I do have a concern about combat droid decay. Which is very few people use them now because of the low damage resist, ham, and damage output. It would therefore absolutely kill the combat droid sales market if they would then decay. If this system were implemented then it would be necessary to adjust the armor segments we make to be able to tweak with a droids resists, as well as in the experimentation process be able to raise the ham more than a hundred or so like we can now. Also damage output from combat modules would need in my opinion different attack methods as well as more output. Without these necessary changes there would be no point to these droids. People could use pets or in my combat toons case simply solo, she is master tk/swordsman/master medic.


As an after thought, it makes more sense to me that if I am using a high grade steel to make this machine it should be more resistant and better able to take a beating than some furry critter that would barely be able to scratch its paint. A real life scenario is a bear vs an RV. The bear can push and claw all it wants but he isnt really gonna hurt the damn thing. Likewise with armor plating a critter should not be able to hurt a droid as much. So kinetic should be higher resist while a blaster should do more since it is meant to pierce armor. Just a thought.

Message Edited by Eceen on 02-20-2005 08:19 AM

Message Edited by Eceen on 02-20-2005 08:20 AM

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Each Droid would have an Integrity Rating. This rating would completely replace the Vitality rating that all droids currently have. The Integrity Rating would be made up of 2 numbers. The first number would represent the current Integrity rating. The second number would represent the total undamaged Integrity rating. A Droid with 0 current Integrity can function as normal; however it will become permenatly damaged by doing so.

Current Integrity

The following will result in the loss of 1 point of Current Integrity

• Each time a Droid is called
• Every 10 minutes that pass by, while the droid is active.

The following will result in the loss of 2 points of Current Integrity

• Any time a Droid is incapped.
• Any time that an Astromech (or Flight Computer) associated with the ship that is destroyed in space.

Any droid that is in a *Low Power* status takes x2 the listed damage.

Overall Integrity

The following will result in the loss of 1 point of Overall Integrity

• For every 10 points of current Integrity repaired (You can repair 1 - 9 points of current Integrity without fear of damaging the droid) 
• Any time a droid with a current Integrity rating of 0 is called

• Any time a droid with a current Integrity rating of 0 is active for more then 10 minutes

The following will result in the loss of 2 point of Overall Integrity

• Any time a droid with a current Integrity rating of 0 is incapped
• Any time a droid with a current Integrity rating of 0 is associated with a ship that is destroyed

Any droid that is in *Low Power* status takes x2 the listed damage.

Repairing Damage

The Current Integrity Rating on any Droid can be repaired at a Droid Repair Terminal (similar in function to a Vehicle Garage), by an LE Repair Droid, or through the use of a Droid Recon Kit (usable by only DEs). For Every 10 points of Current Integrity repaired, 1 point of Overall Integrity is lost. If you repair the droid every 1 - 9 points of Integrity loss, no permenate damage is incurred.

The Overall Integrity Rating on a Droid can not be repaired. Flight Computers can not be repaired.

Disabled Droids

Once the Overall Integrity Rating reaches 0, the droid is disabled. Disabled Droids no longer respond to commands or have any functioning modules, with the exception of Item and Data Storage. Items and Data can only be removed from a disabled droid.

(Optional) Anti-Decay Kits

The current Vet Reward Anti-Decay Kits could be made so that they are usable in a Droid, or a new Droid Anti-Decay kit could be made available through a static, one time only, quest.

(Optional) Integrity Maximum

Each Droid would have a Maximum Integrity Rating possible. Droids such as MSE and R5 units would have a lower Integrity Rating maximum then a BLL.  Here is my suggested ranking of all current Droids, starting with the highest Integrity Rating.

• Highest Integrity Rating (100%)
• Binary Load Lifter
• R2 Unit
• Probot
• Power Droid
• LE Repair Droid
• R3 Unit
• DZ70
• R4 Unit
• Protocol Droid
• Surgical Droid
• Treadwell
• Flight Computer
• R5 Unit
• MSE
• Lowest Integrity Rating (25%)

(Optional) Droid Memory Core

Once a Droid is disabled, a radial menu option appears to extract the Droid's memory core. The Droid memory core has a list of all of the programmed droid commands. This would allow a droid user the ability to reprogram a new droid by simply transfering the information on the Droid memory core to the new droid. This would be done through the use of a radial menu located in the droid users datapad. All information, such as Droid name, programmed commands, and Starship commands, would be transfered to the new droid. (Starship commands would only be available to Astromech Droids)

All numbers listed here are for the purpose of example only

Message Edited by Drashk on 02-20-2005 02:29 PM

While we are on new theories, let me add in some "recycled" ideas from current in-game metrics that might go towards the solution of decay and repeat business:

Droids are like Ships

• DEs should be able to swap in/out modules within droids.  If Jedi can do it with lightsabers, why can't DEs?  Naturally, only DEs could change out modules, and you should only be able to change out modules you can create (i.e., a novice DE shouldn't be able to mess with a Level 6 Med Module).  Obviously, there are some game metrics with that rule, but not written in silicon at this point.    Still could offer the ability to switch out modules to the end-gamer in similiar fashion to the ship station.   Why couldn't there be a DE station and model droid interfaces (no relation to ship droid interfaces) in the same process as ships?

Droids are like Lightsabers

• Modules should have uses or condition on them, just like crystals.   Using the uses model, each time a modules function is activated (combat, med healing, harvesting, etc) a use count is depleted. 
• Modules could have base uses wiht Quality experimentation (something to experiment with besides Effectiveness) could be used to generate higher uses within the specific module.  (Give us 12 pt DEs something to do).

Droids are like Buildings

• Allow Master DEs to place Droid Repair Centers (in similiar fashion to Doctors, Entertainers, Musicians, etc) that allow players to take droids for the proverbial "oil bath" (more on that below)

Droids are like Pets

• If a module use count reaches 0, the droids overall vitality  is reduced.  (In the same model a pets' vitality is reduced when it dies and auto-stores instead of being revived).
• Droid Repair Kits could then be used to return vitality to the droid (In the same model a pets' vitality packs)
• Could also tie into Repair Kit logic (similiar to clothing, weapon, armor)  that if the player attempts a repair on the vitality of the droid, there is a chance of damaging it or disabling it altogether

Droids are like Vehicles

• Disabled droids could be restored at the Droid Repair Center (in game terms - similiar to the parking garage logic) where, for a fee a player could restore the droid chassis.  

Droids are like Players

• Another possible method of repairing droid vitality damage would be to let the droid heal naturally by allowing the player to put the droid into a locker or compartment at the Droid Repair Center that only the player can open (logically - transferring the droid from the datapad of the player to the datapad of the building) and have the droid stay for repairs while the player continues to play.   The player could be emailed when the droid is done "cooking" and vitality is restored.

Droids in Summary

These models of decay and economics could allow for several game economics to change in the following manner:

• Allow DEs to offer more module and chasis sales, thereby increasing shop business flow and repeat customers
• Give DEs more control over the droids they make in creation and after-market management.
• Give DEs more experimentation power along the lines of other classes (doctors, weaponsmiths, etc)
• Use in-game processes that players are used to in other areas and try to help reduce much of the "how does this work" questioning that plagues our profession.

Finally, by trying to incorporate in-game mechanisms that are already used (and programmed), it might (emphasize - MIGHT) help the developers revamp our profession quicker and sooner because they do not have to re-invent the wheel, per se.

Overall, I like the ideas that have been presented and think we are well on the track to a better profession.

Onward and upwards - and stay tuned true-believers.....the best is yet to come.

Respectively,

---

Jonthalas wrote:

While we are on new theories, let me add in some "recycled" ideas from current in-game metrics that might go towards the solution of decay and repeat business:

Droids are like Ships

• DEs should be able to swap in/out modules within droids.  If Jedi can do it with lightsabers, why can't DEs?  Naturally, only DEs could change out modules, and you should only be able to change out modules you can create (i.e., a novice DE shouldn't be able to mess with a Level 6 Med Module).  Obviously, there are some game metrics with that rule, but not written in silicon at this point.    Still could offer the ability to switch out modules to the end-gamer in similiar fashion to the ship station.   Why couldn't there be a DE station and model droid interfaces (no relation to ship droid interfaces) in the same process as ships?

Droids are like Lightsabers

• Modules should have uses or condition on them, just like crystals.   Using the uses model, each time a modules function is activated (combat, med healing, harvesting, etc) a use count is depleted. 
• Modules could have base uses wiht Quality experimentation (something to experiment with besides Effectiveness) could be used to generate higher uses within the specific module.  (Give us 12 pt DEs something to do).

Droids are like Buildings

• Allow Master DEs to place Droid Repair Centers (in similiar fashion to Doctors, Entertainers, Musicians, etc) that allow players to take droids for the proverbial "oil bath" (more on that below)

Droids are like Pets

• If a module use count reaches 0, the droids overall vitality  is reduced.  (In the same model a pets' vitality is reduced when it dies and auto-stores instead of being revived).
• Droid Repair Kits could then be used to return vitality to the droid (In the same model a pets' vitality packs)
• Could also tie into Repair Kit logic (similiar to clothing, weapon, armor)  that if the player attempts a repair on the vitality of the droid, there is a chance of damaging it or disabling it altogether

Droids are like Vehicles

• Disabled droids could be restored at the Droid Repair Center (in game terms - similiar to the parking garage logic) where, for a fee a player could restore the droid chassis.  

Droids are like Players

• Another possible method of repairing droid vitality damage would be to let the droid heal naturally by allowing the player to put the droid into a locker or compartment at the Droid Repair Center that only the player can open (logically - transferring the droid from the datapad of the player to the datapad of the building) and have the droid stay for repairs while the player continues to play.   The player could be emailed when the droid is done "cooking" and vitality is restored.

Droids in Summary

These models of decay and economics could allow for several game economics to change in the following manner:

• Allow DEs to offer more module and chasis sales, thereby increasing shop business flow and repeat customers
• Give DEs more control over the droids they make in creation and after-market management.
• Give DEs more experimentation power along the lines of other classes (doctors, weaponsmiths, etc)
• Use in-game processes that players are used to in other areas and try to help reduce much of the "how does this work" questioning that plagues our profession.

Finally, by trying to incorporate in-game mechanisms that are already used (and programmed), it might (emphasize - MIGHT) help the developers revamp our profession quicker and sooner because they do not have to re-invent the wheel, per se.

Overall, I like the ideas that have been presented and think we are well on the track to a better profession.

Onward and upwards - and stay tuned true-believers.....the best is yet to come.

Respectively,

---

• Droids wear out from use and time called, more is used at low power.
• Decay is repaired with either Recon kits (by owners,) or at a station, like an oil pool.  Some max Vit is lost.
• The lower it gets, the worse it functions, like Jendens examples.
• When a Droid hits 0 it is disabled, it needs replaced. Period.
• If somebody wants to save their "sidekick" they use an anti-decay kit on it BEFORE it hits zero.

The Anti-Decay kits are the best thing to ever happen to us DE's.  Seriously, it takes the entire arguement about droids not dying and makes it moot.  People now get to choose if they want to use it on their sidekick or their other stuff.

Havn't played a year, or don't have one yet?  Well keep your sidekick repaired and safe and he may make it until you do, or buy one.  People sell these a lot, going rate on Scylla is 7 million, this gives those people who don't care about credits even more of a reason to make them.

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YodaMac wrote:

I particularly like the "Droid Memory Core" idea (at first glance) as a great way to keep from having to reprogram your droid commands over and over.  It would even be helpful with just programming your five datapad droids, in that you could copy the core to the new dorid, then simply re-name it and all the rest of your droid commands would already be there for you.

 

You know, that's one of the wonderfully unique things about droids in the game - the ability to give it customized personal commands.  Just one more thing that separates them from a crate of buff foods.  All I'm asking is for us DE's to keep that in mind when we talk about taking them away from players regularly.

 

Some DE's view droids and our profession as just pixels and gameplay mechanics, and it's clear from their viewpoint that if it's not about credits or strict gameplay programming, then it doesnt benefit them.  Fortunately most DE's (and the DEVs) don't view our hard work, or the importance of droids in the game, that way and will continue to support improvements to the DE profession that don't compromise it, but improve it for all players.

 

DE will continue to be a difficult profession to master and thrive in.  But the things that make it worthwhile and unique in the game are worth fighting for.  If we reduce DE to what all the other mass-producing consumable professions are like, then yes, any player who can crank out crates will be able to stand in Coronet and sell them all day long.  Is that our ultimate goal for droids?  Should it be?  There's nothing wrong with being a sought-after profession.  Those that work hard at it can make it (as several of us have) and I like that we are one of the few professions who enjoy helping each other out to succeed.  We don't have to be another "overnight" success profession like all the other "grind it and sell it" ones - because Droids are not like anything else in this game.

 

Jenden, TK  (and even Drashks -partly) proposals all put forth very valid ways to keep players using, wanting and replacing droids- without forcing our profession down a slippery slope to "mass-production or no production".

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I really don't understand why you continue to act like just because some of us like to actually profit from Droids means that we don't care about them.   If I didn't care abotu Droids, why would I be a DE?  Time for profit ratio is certainly very low.  I could make 4 times as much money doing one of the more profitable professions.  We DO care about droids.  Yet we are also realists.  Instead of trying to put Droids on an alter above every other crafted item in the game, we accept that fact that Droids in SWG are a lot like other craftable items.  Obviously it would be great if they were better, but we choose not to be greedywith developer coding time.

I think your really being an alarmist with all your talk of crated droids and such.  Probably only like 20% of the people use their droid often enough to replace it every month.  Another 50% would fall into the 2-3 month range.  Then another 30% probably don't really use a droid.  The 2-3 month people would be foolish to spend money on crated droids, simply because something may improve on them, and they are now stuck with an outdated model.

The 1 month people would be the ONLY ones who may buy crated droids, mostly like Doc buffers and such.  Droids where quality doesn't matter.  This group of people would be very small. 

I stock about 50 different types of Med droids (hand made,) at each of my vendor locations.  I very rarely get custom orders, people simply go pick out one they like.  My vendor is always stocked, the only reason somebody would want a crate of droids was if they didn't have a well stocked vendor to go too.

Let me ask this Yoda, what is the difference between your crates of Droids and a well stocked vendor?  You go on and on about customer interaction and such, but even now with the current system, people buy droids from vendors with little to no interaction.

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Straker_Atrella wrote:

...we accept that fact that Droids in SWG are a lot like other craftable items. 

I don't accept that, and think it is mistaken to do so.  What other SWG items exactly can you name, personally program, and custom color?  What other items in SWG continue to help you in your chosen profession as you play long-term?  The benefits that droids bring are so numerous, and have been stated in so many other threads, that I won't go through it all here... but it all adds up to droids being SPECIAL in the game.  Whether some DE's choose to see it or not.  Many DE's see this and so do the DEVs obviously.

Let me ask this Yoda, what is the difference between your crates of Droids and a well stocked vendor?  You go on and on about customer interaction and such, but even now with the current system, people buy droids from vendors with little to no interaction.

Some customers buy droids from vendors, some do not.  I have been a custom droid crafter since the beginning and continue to do fine business that way.  My vendor is stocked with only a minimal amount of 'standard' models for those who shop that way.  The majority of my business still comes from customers who want a specific droid with specific modules to help them in their gameplay, so there is plenty of interaction.  It all depends on how the DE plays, not neccessarily the rest of the players.

My fear about a too-quick decay system is that it would lead to even more players only bothering to buy crated droids from vendors, since they are forced to replace them so often.  If the system goes to far, then they have no real choice.  So a sort of decay is fine, as long as it takes into account the dangers of going too far with the system and ruining much of the fun of playing a DE, and gives the players who wish to keep their droids (and are willing to pay to keep them repaired/refurbished) the opportunity to do so.  Including DEs.

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Yod Amac - Head DE, Serenity, Naboo, Radiant Galaxy

Yod DROIDWORX - Get a Droid that Works for You!

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Jenden wrote:
Yoda, I just don't agree with your logic on crates. The vast majority of players will realize that things change in 3 months, and they may not want to buy up ahead of time. The only reason people buy crates of weapons is because the weapons last about a week tops if they're doing a lot of combat. We're talking about months. Nothing changes about the fact that droids are special if they begin decaying, if anything it just makes it a bit more realistic, and could even increase the attachment people feel towards their droid. As it is now a lot of people never even think about their droid since its just something thats always there. If they need to start looking after it, they're more likely to think about it more.

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Yod Amac - Head DE, Serenity, Naboo, Radiant Galaxy

Yod DROIDWORX - Get a Droid that Works for You!

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YodaMac wrote:

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Straker_Atrella wrote:

...we accept that fact that Droids in SWG are a lot like other craftable items. 

I don't accept that, and think it is mistaken to do so.  What other SWG items exactly can you name, personally program, and custom color?  What other items in SWG continue to help you in your chosen profession as you play long-term?  The benefits that droids bring are so numerous, and have been stated in so many other threads, that I won't go through it all here... but it all adds up to droids being SPECIAL in the game.  Whether some DE's choose to see it or not.  Many DE's see this and so do the DEVs obviously.

Guess that depends what you are talking about.  I can color my armor whatever I want.  The skill tapes I put into it are pretty close to "programming" from that point of view.  My ship is another, I name it, I program in my commands, I can color it, I can fly, and even live in it.  My starship that can Hyper across the galaxy is far more complex then a droid.  Guess what, ships decay.  Whats more complex, a droid or a living creature?  BE's actually make living creatures, they look how they want, they get named, and they get "programmed."  Eventually they die and need replaced as well.

This isn't the movies, there are so many glaring differences.  How many times did you see Han, Chiewie, Luke or Vader clone?  I never saw it once.  Guess what, they were heros, they were different from the run of the mill people you saw getting killed left and right.  Yet people keep trying to relate the Droids in the game to the Droids in the movie as well.  They are not, they were "Heros" as well.  Certainly not your run of the mill droids.

The scrap heaps and Jawa Sandcrawlers are full of fine examples of what happens to run of them ill droids like the ones we use.

Let me ask this Yoda, what is the difference between your crates of Droids and a well stocked vendor?  You go on and on about customer interaction and such, but even now with the current system, people buy droids from vendors with little to no interaction.

Some customers buy droids from vendors, some do not.  I have been a custom droid crafter since the beginning and continue to do fine business that way.  My vendor is stocked with only a minimal amount of 'standard' models for those who shop that way.  The majority of my business still comes from customers who want a specific droid with specific modules to help them in their gameplay, so there is plenty of interaction.  It all depends on how the DE plays, not neccessarily the rest of the players.

So what makes you think if decay is added this will change?  I 100% agree it depends on the customer.  Some will still want special orders, others will still buy from vendors, and those really heavy users "may" buy crates.  There is no logic to thinking that the customers actually personalities are going to change, simply because we added decay.

My fear about a too-quick decay system is that it would lead to even more players only bothering to buy crated droids from vendors, since they are forced to replace them so often.  If the system goes to far, then they have no real choice.  So a sort of decay is fine, as long as it takes into account the dangers of going too far with the system and ruining much of the fun of playing a DE, and gives the players who wish to keep their droids (and are willing to pay to keep them repaired/refurbished) the opportunity to do so.  Including DEs.

I still really don't follow how you think a 3 month replacement for normal people as quick.  The one month replacement is only for the fastest users.  The guy who's droid is out for 8 hours every day.  You keep acting like people are proposing weekly replacement, nobody wants that.

I think the anti-decay kit is the perfect way to allow people to preserve their droids.

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Message Edited by Straker_Atrella on 02-21-2005 11:41 PM

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YodaMac wrote:

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Jenden wrote:
Yoda, I just don't agree with your logic on crates. The vast majority of players will realize that things change in 3 months, and they may not want to buy up ahead of time. The only reason people buy crates of weapons is because the weapons last about a week tops if they're doing a lot of combat. We're talking about months. Nothing changes about the fact that droids are special if they begin decaying, if anything it just makes it a bit more realistic, and could even increase the attachment people feel towards their droid. As it is now a lot of people never even think about their droid since its just something thats always there. If they need to start looking after it, they're more likely to think about it more.

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I agree with what you're saying here, as long as we are talking about months of actual use-time, and if players who are attached to their droids can pay to keep them chugging along (like in your proposal).  As I said, my fear for the fun of the profession centers around taking "decay" to it's extreme.  That's all I'm saying.

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A huge reason that people buy crates of weapons especially is because they want to get good slices.  You may buy 25 pistols and only get 3 that are great. This hardly translates to anything close to droids.  When you buy a droid, you know exactly what you are getting.

Lets clarify this months thing.  Yoda, you are saying "Months of actual use-time," so if I am reading that right, you mean 2160 HOURS of actual use? For 3 months.  Meaning if somebody used their droid for 4 hours a day, it lasted 540 days?  What is the point of even having decay then?

I don't think that is what "many" of us are talking about.  I am thinking about 400 hours of use myself.  Here is how that would break down.

• 24 hours use a day, (such as a buffbot) = 16 days
• 12 hours use a day, = 33 days (1 month)
• 6 hours a day = 66 days (2 months)
• 3 hours a day = 133.3 (4 months)
• 1.5 hours a day = (8 months)
• Just pulling it out to get stuff out of a storage droid or craft a little a day = a year

Death and low power would makehtis go even faster.

Honestly, this is probably still to slow.  But it is fair.  Yes 16 days at the high end seems really really fast, but that droid is under constant use.  This would affect a very small percentage of the population.  Yes this person may buy crated droids.  How many people on a server use their droid 24 hours a day?  10 maybe?

Then on the other end, some droids would still actually live forever.  My storage droids see maybe 15 minutes a day if that.  This is the part that actually makes it seem a little slow.

The best solution would probably be to have them take a vit hit when they are pulled out, a small one of course though.

I still think the anti-decay kit is the perfect way for people to preserve a droid if they want.

• 24 hours use a day, (such as a buffbot) = 12 days
• 12 hours use a day, = 18 days 
• 6 hours a day = 30 days
• 3 hours a day = 45 days
• 1.5 hours a day = 60 days(2 months)
• 1.5 hour every other day = 3 months (casual players fall more into this window)
• Just pulling it out to get stuff out of a storage droid or craft a little a day = 6 months (aka max time droid functions)

This would be more to the scale i think is reasonable, but opinions will vary.  Thanks for putting up some numbers i think its important we get down to the nitty gritty and get a window on these specifics.