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Pistoleer Top 5 Issues (04-08-04)   [ Edited ]
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Randonb
Blue Glowie
Posts: 4726
Registered: 06-28-2003


Randonb

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Here you go guys. The format is a little different this time. Thunderheart wants a Top 5, and a list of "Wish List" items afterwards. The list I actually submit to him will be very simple and plain, so he can put it into an Excel spreadsheet for effecient tracking. He's going to answer the Top 5 Lists from the various boards in a "staggered" pattern this time around, rather than try to tackle them all at once. I don't know what order he's going to do them in.
 
 
TOP 5 ISSUES
 
 
1) 10 out of our 12 specials are redundant, inadequate, or broken.
 
"Status of Pistoleer Specials" in the Pistoleer forum has an up to date list of problems, coupled with recommended fixes. It can be found here.
 
2) We have no state effects or interesting attacks.
 
All we do is damage, aside from 1 melee range KD and 1 bleed. Because of this, our only recourse is to pick the special that deals the most damage and spam it. "Vanilla" Random HAM damage is everywhere in our tree. We need state effects and special attacks, both to be competitive and to be exciting to play.
 
3) Our DPS is too low.
 
It's so low We have difficulty outdamaging the regeneration of buffed players. Other professions can have up to 4x or even 7x our damage output, far greater accuracy, and comparable defenses all from the same tree. Pistoleers feel that the answer doesn't lie in a simple speed increase. Increasing our speed to what we consider adequate levels would have 2 side effects: 1) virtually ignoring the speed stat on weapons, and 2) burning through our HAM too quickly. A speed & damage increase is recommended.
 
4) The Speed System used by the game is completely screwed up.
 
Pistols are supposed to be "fast but not hard hitting." In the current state of SWG, all weapons attack at roughly the same speed at master level: 1.x seconds per attack for most specials. Our speed advantage simply isn't there, but our damage disadvantage is all too apparent. This has been well documented.
 
The formula is exponential - DPS doubles and redoubles at 50, 75, 87.5, 93.75, 96.875, 98.4375, 99.21875 and so forth speed. At 100 speed, the player would deal infinite damage if they weren't restricted by the 1 second speed cap. Not only does this screw up the rate of progression, it makes the system exceedingly difficult to balance.
 
5) Our defenses need help.
 
Dodge is the minimum of what it should be. Our Melee/Ranged Defense is nearly meaningless unless stacked, and dwarfed by other professions that deal more damage. Our State Defenses are virtually meaningless, as our opponent need only spam the special once or twice more.
 
 

 
 
WISH LIST ITEMS
We would like to emphasize that the matters listed below should take a back seat to the fixing of our Top 5 Issues.
 
 
6) Our accuracy is too low. Pistoleers report extraordinary difficulty hitting defense stackers in PvP.
 
7) Pistoleers wish to Dual Wield pistols, either in the Master box or in an "Elite-Elite" Space Expansion profession.
 
8) Pistoleers desire a new weapon in the Master box, one worthy of it's location. A damage type otherwise unavailable to us would be preferable.
 
9) Pistoleers wish to have holsters and "twirly" moves.
 
10) The dodge animation while standing is a bit lackluster. We are glad to hear it will not display while running in Publish 8, as this was hindering our movement. Ideally, we would like it to be replaced with a stylish new "dodge while running" animation that would not affect our movement in any way. If we could replace the "dodge while standing" animation as well, that would be wonderful. The simple side step isn't very exciting.

Message Edited by Randonb on 04-08-2004 04:47 PM



"...You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." biwan:
Former Pistoleer Correspondent (02/04/04 - 09/05/04)
04-08-2004 02:24 PM  

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Re: Pistoleer Top 5 Issues (04-08-04)
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Shazeen
Wing Commander
Posts: 761
Registered: 06-26-2003


Shazeen

Reply 2 of 78

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/applaud

Very nicely done Randonb!


~ Blanchbaca ~ Master Rifleman / Master Chef ~ Flurry || Orim ~ Master Pistoleer / Master Smuggler ~ Scylla ~

04-08-2004 02:46 PM  

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Re: Pistoleer Top 5 Issues (04-08-04)
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electricnomad
Jedi
Posts: 3732
Registered: 07-08-2003



PA: Lone Star
Server: Starsider

Reply 3 of 78

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Looks good to me.

Then again, I liked these all the first and second and third times around, too - many of these demands are the same ones we've been giving the Devs since the Correspondent program began, so I hope nobody's hopes are too high that these will be fixed anytime soon.

See for yourselves:

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=pistoleer&message.id=1810

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=pistoleer&message.id=2861

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=pistoleer&message.id=7719

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=pistoleer&message.id=24714

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=pistoleer&message.id=30542


"We're dedicating a designer (Green Marine) next week to looking into fixing some of the bigger issues of the smuggler. (Yes, we are also looking at issues with the other professions, the smuggler just seems to be the one needing the most love at this moment)." Q-3PO - September 16, 2003
Great Threads in Smuggler History, Vol. I / Vol. II / Vol. III - Collected Posts by the Devs Concerning Smugglers
***ELECTRICNOMAD RETIRED FROM SWG ON 7 MAY 2004***
04-08-2004 03:31 PM  

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Re: Pistoleer Top 5 Issues (04-08-04)
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Dardanus
SWG Chief Petty Officer
Posts: 436
Registered: 08-31-2003


Dardanus
PA: ERS
Server: Kauri

Reply 4 of 78

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Great Job, but  are these not the same changes we ave been asking for for months?

 

 

 

<--------Lynch Shikrus- Prince of Pistoleers-------->
You can turn your back on a man, but never turn your back on a drug-HST

04-08-2004 03:56 PM  

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Re: Pistoleer Top 5 Issues (04-08-04)
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KenshiNaruto
SWG Second Lieutenant
Posts: 142
Registered: 07-01-2003


KenshiNaruto
PA: Nova Industries
Server: Chilastra

Reply 5 of 78

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Maybe some day the Dev's will actually give us something on this list... I mean we've only been asking for these changes for half a year.
 
I can't wait for my "twirly" moves!

______
Neruto :: Chilastra
Swordsman :: Privateer Pilot
Nova Industries
04-08-2004 04:11 PM  

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Re: Pistoleer Top 5 Issues (04-08-04)
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BeWary
Jedi
Posts: 3090
Registered: 07-09-2003


BeWary
PA: WSABI
Server: Valcyn

Reply 6 of 78

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" All of your concerns will be addressed in the combat re-balance. Thanx for playing and don't forget to submit another list in 2 months" -Nameless Dev

Nice job Ran, not your fault it's pretty much the same list form 6 months ago.

Gigo Paku/Sai'Meez FightinFish/Lacks Drive


"Early to bed, and ealry to rise probably indicate manual labour"- John Ciardi


Xamyr Epan is a thief


04-08-2004 04:18 PM  

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Re: Pistoleer Top 5 Issues (04-08-04)
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Kevie
Jedi
Posts: 5221
Registered: 07-16-2003


Kevie
PA: Pak'Cafan
Server: Kettemoor

Reply 7 of 78

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couldn't have put it better, five stars


Oaceen Tunaisea (Ow-seen Two-nay-see), Kettemoor
There is no command, mood, chat type: smuggle
"#*% damnit, no. Caboose; I'm not cold, I don't want a hotdog, and if you
put mustard in my #&$^ing sheets again I'm gonna kill you." - Tucker
-
04-08-2004 05:40 PM  

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Re: Pistoleer Top 5 Issues (04-08-04)
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Scott_Ray
Jedi
Posts: 1137
Registered: 06-26-2003


Scott_Ray

Reply 8 of 78

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Looks good.

Scott Ray-Chilastra Server
Leader of Raythe Tech Mining
Blademaster/Master Gunfighter
Surveyor/Miner/Mercenary
2 cpu for Ore.
04-08-2004 06:22 PM  

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Re: Pistoleer Top 5 Issues (04-08-04)   [ Edited ]
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Spike7913
SWG Lieutenant
Posts: 271
Registered: 07-11-2003


Spike7913
PA: OAsis
Server: Tarquinas

Reply 9 of 78

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maybe one and two should be merged, our specials COULD be interesting if they weren't broken


3 and 4 are big to me, seeing as i have done more DPS in other professions with maybe a few boxes,


5, seems to me dodge was working great when we first got it, then somewhere down the line i found myself being missed more often,

maybe because of what i am fighting but who knows,


6 is a definite, even if its accuracy within 48 meters or something we need to be more accurate,


7 is in the works, almost makes me want to take up fencer too just to be a super 1337 dual wielder! muwahhaha i pwn joo.


8, very true, but all professions need this, i also think the master box needs to be better in general, maybe +36 speed, and even 90 would be cool, fixed specials especially MTPS, i've been finding myself using pointblankarea1 alot recently when surronded on all sides and i love it.


9 holsters,


10 we would also like make up so we can look pretty while dodging. but for real i completely agree, looking lame compared to everyone else is the worst kind of unbalance of them all : ^)

Message Edited by Spike7913 on 07-01-2004 02:01 AM

Skippy

yup, back to oasis


04-08-2004 06:44 PM  

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Re: Pistoleer Top 5 Issues (04-08-04)
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fareone
Jedi
Posts: 854
Registered: 07-08-2003


fareone

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they are not ganna do anythink becouse bh.... they have to do samethink about skill mixing..i mean..for exeple when u bh u cant get pistol or when u got smuglar u cant get pistol ot tka same time( ofcourse, first they have to fix these professions for that) my opinion they have to change all profesiions system

got Ofio( lowca)... opef ofio( lowca)
04-09-2004 12:39 AM  

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Re: Pistoleer Top 5 Issues (04-08-04)
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Willissz
SWG Chief Petty Officer
Posts: 144
Registered: 07-27-2003


Willissz

Reply 11 of 78

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Well said.

"Cats always land on their feet. Toast always lands buttered side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision." - Willissz
04-09-2004 03:14 AM  

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Re: Pistoleer Top 5 Issues (04-08-04)
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FallingByTheWayside
Wing Commander
Posts: 515
Registered: 09-10-2003


FallingByTheWayside
PA: Ranger Corps (FTP)
Server: Shadowfire

Reply 12 of 78

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I don't know if this has been said before, but when it comes to the speed cap wouldn't the two shots at a time that could come from dual-wielding be a solution?

I mean, thats 2 shots per second at speed cap, essentially increasing our speed to .5 of a second per attack.  This would increase our DPS without having to lower the speed cap, wouldn't it?

It truly would make us the "fastest" of all ranged professions, wouldn't it?  And we wouldn't be "overpowered" due to the drain our specials would have on our HAM.

Anyone please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.  And if its been posted a million times before I'm sorry, I tend to spend all my time on the Ranger forums these days...

_________________________________________
Nebau Eave: Mayneh het Terhanen
----Master Ranger
---------Master Pistoleer
--------------Shadowfire-----Rebel Warrant Officer I
Forever Zabrak, I will survive and protect
04-10-2004 12:47 AM  

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Re: Pistoleer Top 5 Issues (04-08-04)
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BZebub
Wing Commander
Posts: 671
Registered: 08-12-2003



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there's so many ways dual wield could be implemented, we can't say it will double our DPS.
 
maybe both weapons will be capped at one second, for example, meaning one shot per second.
maybe the HAM costs will be so extreme that it will be useless. or accuracy penalties.
04-10-2004 10:51 AM  

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Re: Pistoleer Top 5 Issues (04-08-04)
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WesBelden
Galactic Senator
Posts: 4521
Registered: 07-01-2003


WesBelden
PA: Rebel Squadrons
Server: Starsider

Reply 14 of 78

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Looks great RandonB, job well done . One can only hope that this time round they actually listen and act on what we've said.


electricnomad wrote:

Looks good to me.

Then again, I liked these all the first and second and third times around, too - many of these demands are the same ones we've been giving the Devs since the Correspondent program began, so I hope nobody's hopes are too high that these will be fixed anytime soon.

See for yourselves:

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=pistoleer&message.id=1810

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=pistoleer&message.id=2861

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=pistoleer&message.id=7719

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=pistoleer&message.id=24714

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=pistoleer&message.id=30542



 

It seems the developers have managed to ignore both Smuggler and Pistoleer, each profession's correspondant having to state the same issues over and over only to receive another request to state the issues again. Perhaps the Devs recognise these two professions as some of the most 'Star Wars esq' in the game and as such have stuck their heads in the sand rather than confront what needs to be done. Alternatively, they may just have known they only have time to work on so many professions at once and merely asked for issues over and over as an attempt to keep the community happy.

Whatever the reasons, one can only hope that they are actually going to make good on their promises and make many changes for the better.

TH, or infact any Dev that happens to be bored enough to have read this reply, the ball's in your court now... again. Please do something spectacular with it this time and make up for all the miss hits to date.

 

 

 

=======================================================================
WesBelden the last Smuggler Correspondent.
Who's the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?
04-10-2004 11:16 AM  

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Re: Pistoleer Top 5 Issues (04-08-04)
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Squidwalker
Jedi
Posts: 2969
Registered: 06-28-2003


Squidwalker
PA: RU
Server: Bria

Reply 15 of 78

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Very nice, and well done. Although I still feel numbers 4 and 5 are basically the same thing and the fix for both requires the needs of both. Yes we are slow, BUT if they redo the formula and make it so pistoleers are the only ones that reach the speed cap of 1x a second, it would greatly improve what we want. It's not so much that we are slow, it's that everyone else is just as fast. IMHO the other profession that should reach the speed cap is TKM. Why? Think about how fast a martial artist is, and how fast you can move your body, and using nothing but your body as the weaon? It's much faster and easier doing that then moving a melee weapon around. The other professions need to be slower then us.

Thus, if they redo the whole speed formula, number 5, it will give us half of what we want in number 4. Of course I wouldn't mind being able to deal more damage per hit, but I realistically, I would rather see the formula get changed and balanced, and see how all of it pans out after all the phases of the combat revamp. If we still feel greatly out of balance, then yes, change something.

The wishlist is great, and I think it hits our top most "wishes".

Teranus Blan'Fyl
OldSchool Ranger
Short-Timer
04-10-2004 12:47 PM  

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