Some of my friends reported a toughness bug lately, this is the only explanation I have to your problems. With a buddy rifleman/some doc/some cm elders are a walk in the park. I can't confirm the toughness bug because I soloed an elder yesterday without problems with my test template (see above).
I dont want to insult you in any way just to remind you to keep the elder intimidated all the time. CoB make you harder to hit (so its like a +melee defence which is useless against elders) but also (I'm talking about my experience) enhances your chances to counterattack (like a +counterattack). I'm using it even against elders because of my mind stats.
The state defences stack works against elders, yes. Thanks to Milgram's observations and my tests I can confirm this: if you have a template with +90 stun defence and you wear stun BE shirt +18 and some attachments for +7 you will never(!) get stun from elders. In PvP you'll easily get a stun from a jedi or even TKM.
I played a little with your template and I can suggest this one (you will be able to solo ANY elders with good stim C's and very well prepared):
I adapted this template to your current template so its easy to get it (tumblers everywhere).
You can try also MB/MS/Novice Doc/FS crapola but because of some FS wasted points you cannot get Doc 4200 which is the level of Doc I consider better than state def stack.
Ahh, important: heal the bleed FIRST.
Peace.
Message Edited by vnicula on 11-10-200410:29 PM
This guy is a smart man. Listen to him or else.
Neeo [
Can't do it anymore...
Account ends Dec. 8 Now that you have tasted my mutton, how do you like it?
I've now finished my medic to 2140, still haven't gotten that last box of fencer yet... Went out soloing on my own tonight... With 1200 pop heals, things were real nice until my BF hit 600+ and heals dropped to 500. I had no one to clear states and it didn't seem to matter, didn't use the CoB and my mind was pretty good. Had to flee 1 stun baton elder. Did great agaisnt a PH elder, no problems. Ran into 1 elder that loved dizzy knockdown... It wasn't sticky to often... Still it was the only elder I ever ended up on my back and I was there 3 times in the fight... I couldn't keep up with the bleeds of course, but just knock the blereds down when they popped over 800 a tick was all I needed...
As for intimidate... I stakc both intimidates and I always keep them there. I also use warcry to buy a few free seconds ot heal and do first aid, etc...
Still... My mind is down around 100-400 at the end of these battles because my stomache is full and my canape has run out... I really don't like seeing my mind under 1k when I have 1900 or more on the bar. 40% reduction synthsteak does work really nice though! Oh, I also swapped out my +18 stun shirt for a +17 bleeding defense shirt... All I have to say is that also made a big difference. My previous 2 testing, bleeding seemed to be a major problem with the tick takign huge chuncks out of my HAM bar... I rarely saw the huge chunks tonight and when it did happen I would only take 2 or 3 first aids to put it in hte safe zone. After tonight I'm alot less worried about bleeds and stun state to be honest... Mostly worried about stun weapons, mind bar and dizzy+knockdown happy elders... They're definately not as scary tonight as they were a few days ago!!!
Battleaxe - Bloodfin galaxy. Surveyor of Lok and 12 point Master FS Weaponsmith. _____ Resources, Sliced Weapons, Skill tapes, Loot... Mall.....800m from Theed starport at -5139 3399. _____ Deliveries use any vendor named 'BA's ...'.
I dont want to insult you in any way just to remind you to keep the elder intimidated all the time. CoB make you harder to hit (so its like a +melee defence which is useless against elders) but also (I'm talking about my experience) enhances your chances to counterattack (like a +counterattack). I'm using it even against elders because of my mind stats.
Rodean, despite the bonuses to swordsman, is really handicapped on the mind... The CoB is a really bad drain... Someone said I might be better off trying some different food that can add at least 700 is not more to focus... I'll have to give that a try... For right now, I'm goign to skip the CoB macro until I can solve the mind pool problem. It could be that just using 9 min 33% fill canape is the wrogn way to go to try to keep my mind regen up! As it is I'm draining my mind on simple mobs like meatlumps on endless cycle after about 20 minutes of fighting (done to test to see if it was damage that was dropping my pool or me).
The state defences stack works against elders, yes. Thanks to Milgram's observations and my tests I can confirm this: if you have a template with +90 stun defence and you wear stun BE shirt +18 and some attachments for +7 you will never(!) get stun from elders. In PvP you'll easily get a stun from a jedi or even TKM.
Well, as I noted in my post, defense stacking is defiantely working! I'm quite happy with it. A friend is master doctor/master swordsman/artisan 0001. *shrug* I'm defiantely having an easy go of elders than he is, even though he's using an 800 max dam hammer to my 600, etc... That aside, do we know at roughly which level states stop sticking? 100? 125? I designed my template so that I could with SEA's get my stun, dizzy and knockdown defenses to 90-100... If I can make myself nearly immune to knockdown, then quite frankly I don't really care about dizzy and blind, which means the 3rd tree in fencer isn't really necessary and I cna concentrate my SEAs on just knockdown, stun and bleed. Thus freeing up more skill points for medic... Since I don't PvP, this route is most attractive to me.
I played a little with your template and I can suggest this one (you will be able to solo ANY elders with good stim C's and very well prepared):
The knockdown defense tree in fencer is attractive! I can't seem to find good stim C's on bloodfin... The few I do find, are only 100-150 better than B's... Basically I have B's around 420-490. Stimc C's are running arounf 600-650. While D's are running around 1000-1200. Seems to me you either go with B's or D's. I think the Rodean and the very weak mind stats really forces me to stim D's...
I adapted this template to your current template so its easy to get it (tumblers everywhere).
You can try also MB/MS/Novice Doc/FS crapola but because of some FS wasted points you cannot get Doc 4200 which is the level of Doc I consider better than state def stack.
It doesn't seem worth it to me to just grab novice doc... Well, after watching the master doctor/master swordsman template with only intimidate 1... I found myself not to impressed by the healing/state curing power... It's interesting that the only states he ever cures for himself is dizzy and bleedign if it gets higher than a heal can keep up with. Pretty much all I'm doign with my wimpy first aid is jsut healign bleeds enough to get them under control too... Still, when me and him wnet out hunting SMC councilwomen (SMC version of elders), I was on my back once out of liek 20 of these, yet he was on his back for just about every encounter... Most of the time with a dizzy in place and him out of action for a while. I was even asked to him him twice while he was down... The flip side however... I got pwned by a stun wielder and he killed it... So therer is good staying power in that tempalte I don't have...
Ahh, important: heal the bleed FIRST.
Yup! But with the admendment that only if it's a noticeable bleed! If it's only doing 50 a tick, ignore it.
Peace.
I'm goign to try and test out the immune to knockdown template first... If it works great, I'll stick with it, else I'll test the novice doctor template!
Message Edited by vnicula on 11-10-200410:29 PM
This guy is a smart man. Listen to him or else.
Battleaxe - Bloodfin galaxy. Surveyor of Lok and 12 point Master FS Weaponsmith. _____ Resources, Sliced Weapons, Skill tapes, Loot... Mall.....800m from Theed starport at -5139 3399. _____ Deliveries use any vendor named 'BA's ...'.
Can I ask something? Why is it that there is no CM mentioned in any of these templates? It seems like the mind poison would be a good addition to the swordsman bleeds and mind hits. Is it too much of a SP drain? I thought if you were going to get doctor anyway it might be worthwhile to pick up some CM.....Is this not the case?
I focused my templates on PvE (as title says). Here is my opinion about your question:
CM templates are mostly PvP templates, although I saw people killing those protectors around Axkva by poisoning them and wait like 10 min until they are down to 1 HAM.
If you have 12 points and spider venom around 200 you can make poisons with 1000 tick but thats the ideal case and you cant have MCM/MHS together. Assuming you can throw poisons with 1000 tick anyway and you stack them you will get 3000 dam/10 sec = 300 dam/sec. This is somehow too low to count against high-end mobs like krayts or elders. A regular speed capped MHS equipped with a 600 max dam ph will dish out around 2800-3000 dam/sec with Head Hit 3 so we're talking about 10% difference with all those points invested in CM. Actually you will lose these 10% more damage because you have to toss out master brawler which means less toughness (more healing, time consuming), no intimidate2 (again time consuming) not to mention another 5-6 mils for the speed.
The best PvE killing machines have master brawler inside. This means no CM. Doctor does not require Ranged Support IV.
For PvP... apply poisons, couple of head hits and /deathblow or /strut at your choice.
Ok good points but let me make a couple too. You don't need MCM, only 4/0/0/4 if you are going to buy your poisons from a 12-pt MCM. Still MBrawler is impossible but you could do some doc to improve your healing and heal states. When you say 10% damage that's assuming a contant rate of 3000 dmg/sec spamming HH3, but keep in mind once the poison is applied this would be a *contant* 300 dmg/sec even while healing damage, sticking intimidates, healing states, and even lying on your back. Curious on this point -- do you typically apply your mind bleeds to Elders or just HH3?
I know you don't like to argue the MBrawler issue but as you mentioned in your first post most of the mods can be bought.
Here's what you're getting from that box (well you're also getting the ability to dabble in other melee for defenses, but according to these posts melee def is ineffective vs. high-end npcs, and the state defs can be almost made up for in foods):
Intimidation +20 - can get +17 from inexpensive BE shirt Warcry +20 - can get +17 from inexpensive BE shirt Melee Defense +5 - as mentioned above not much help vs. high end
Ranged Def +5 - ok in certain cases but we're mostly talking high-end mobs here 2h Accuracy +5 - would be missed 2h CoB +5 - doesn't matter much I think 2h Speed +5 - can get speed capped through attachments 2h Melee Toughness +5 - would be missed
Abilities: Int 2 - you state 30% more dmg reduction than with int 1 (when both are stacked) 2h Lunge 2 - merely a convenience, not a necessity Warcry 2 - a convenience again
Out of this the only thing that really gets my attention is the Int2...Maybe that 30% is worth it but maybe not -- it sure is alot of skill points to sacrifice. As a starting MSwords I'd definitely get MBrawler, but as I acquired alot of creds and uber gear I might reconsider keeping it...
Curious on this point -- do you typically apply your mind bleeds to Elders or just HH3?
I always apply bleeds only after I get an auto-bleed from hh3.
2h Melee Toughness +5 - would be missed
I think we're talking about an additional 8-14 dam/sec to your HAM (assuming 450 average dam/sec from elder). If you're ganked by elder/protectors/spellweavers those +5 REALLY count.
Warcry 2 - a convenience again
Hmm, sometimes it saved my butt because without it the bleeds and the damage was too much. Basically, after /warcry1 is over, /warcry2 can give you a fresh start, another 20 sec to heal those bleeds. Having two warcrys means five time more safe time than only /warcry1. Its important in PvP also but with MHS/CM you don't need it anyway
Out of this the only thing that really gets my attention is the Int2...Maybe that 30% is worth it but maybe not -- it sure is alot of skill points to sacrifice.
Intimidate2 also make you able to succesfully kill 3-4 protectors at a time (or 2 elders at the same time if you get lucky). Without it its almost impossible to fight 2 elders same time, assuming you don't want to poison them to death, lol.
One more thing: without MCM you can't use the most powerfull poisons. My evil question to you is:
Why dabbling like this when you can have MRifle/MCM/FS crapola and conceal and kite them to death? And KS at your choice. And be more efficient in PvP also...
Anyway, I killed elders even with BH 3000/MHS/Medic 2040 and this is just a discussion about BEST PvE TEMPLATES. Keep yours, I really wanted to have it some time ago but the lack of uber poisons left me with a bitter taste.
Why dabbling like this when you can have MRifle/MCM/FS crapola and conceal and kite them to death? And KS at your choice. And be more efficient in PvP also...
Well a few reasons:
1) I find melee to be more fun
2) Too many things can go wrong with pure-ranged in both PvE and PvP and if something/someone gets in close then you're dead
3) I doubt MRifle without melee skills can take down a high-end npc quicker than a MSwords template
Anyway, I killed elders even with BH 3000/MHS/Medic 2040 and this is just a discussion about BEST PvE TEMPLATES. Keep yours, I really wanted to have it some time ago but the lack of uber poisons left me with a bitter taste.
I think the highest DPS to a targetted pool makes for the best PvEr (provided you can stay alive long enough to win), and so to this end I think some CM skills might be useful. Maybe it'll be better, maybe worse....won't know until I try it out I guess!
I focused my templates on PvE (as title says). Here is my opinion about your question:
CM templates are mostly PvP templates, although I saw people killing those protectors around Axkva by poisoning them and wait like 10 min until they are down to 1 HAM.
If you have 12 points and spider venom around 200 you can make poisons with 1000 tick but thats the ideal case and you cant have MCM/MHS together. Assuming you can throw poisons with 1000 tick anyway and you stack them you will get 3000 dam/10 sec = 300 dam/sec. This is somehow too low to count against high-end mobs like krayts or elders. A regular speed capped MHS equipped with a 600 max dam ph will dish out around 2800-3000 dam/sec with Head Hit 3 so we're talking about 10% difference with all those points invested in CM. Actually you will lose these 10% more damage because you have to toss out master brawler which means less toughness (more healing, time consuming), no intimidate2 (again time consuming) not to mention another 5-6 mils for the speed.
The best PvE killing machines have master brawler inside. This means no CM. Doctor does not require Ranged Support IV.
For PvP... apply poisons, couple of head hits and /deathblow or /strut at your choice.
Peace.
I'm Master Brawler, Master Swordsman, some Medic, some Fencer. I've just started considering CM after an encounter with a DWB Wraith, only after I started the fight and noticed the minimal damage I was inflicting (a little over 100 per Head Hit 3) with my PH did I examine him and see the 90% Blast resistance. He also was 75% kinetic, so I don't think a scythe would do much better. I didn't have many problems with states, got dizzied some but never KD. I died only because I got careless with the heals. At 113k HAM, this would have been a looong fight had I not died. In this case a nice mind poison tick would go a long way wouldn't it? Unless I can pick up a very nice lance, which I don't have nearly the money for right now, wouldn't CM be a big help? Any suggestions? (Also am I just wasting time looking for loot with the DWB types, should I just go for Elders and not worry about these guys, problem solved?)
Master Pistoleer/ Master Smuggler-Scylla Master CH/ Master Rifleman/ FS Fool-Bria Master Brawler/Master Swordsman/Formerly Master Bad@ss-Tempest Novice Swordsman/Novice Commando- Eclipse Damn I need to get a life- True
But i dont know if to drop the Meditate line and get:
Pikeman 0040 (for the dizzy def)
Im going mainly for NS elder hunting and things like that. i Found having Master Fencer and no Medic skills was a real downer so im working on getting 2040. Anyone suggest getting higher Def stats and dropping Meditate line?
I have +26 in dizzy SEA's on top of defensive stacking with Pikeman, which puts me over 100 in dizzy defense... Being over 100 is very noticeable!
Battleaxe - Bloodfin galaxy. Surveyor of Lok and 12 point Master FS Weaponsmith. _____ Resources, Sliced Weapons, Skill tapes, Loot... Mall.....800m from Theed starport at -5139 3399. _____ Deliveries use any vendor named 'BA's ...'.
. Doctor does not require Ranged Support IV
