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How to make max BER 10 medium or BER 13 heavies.   [ Edited ]
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Pawlin
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Ok, here's a first stab at a guide.  Feel free to add your advice and I'll edit this to flush it out...
 
 
First of all you'll probably need to be a master architect or very close to it.  I'm not 100% sure how high you experimentation needs to be though.
 
You'll need good steel plus maybe some metal and ore and some lubrication oil.   These materials are for the final combine and the key mining component in the harvester : Ore mining units, Light ore mining units, Turbo fluidic drilling pump unit, fluidic drilling pump unit, Heavy harvesting mechanism, harvesting mechanism.  Not all of the harvesters need ore.  You can use all steel if you have some good stuff or a combination steel and other metals.  The steel, metal and ore materials need to have high HR, SR and UT.  The equation is 25% HR, 25% SR and 50% UT so if you have HR + SR + UT + UT over 3600 then you're in the right ballpark but you should shoot for an average of 950.
 
You should use lubrication oil for the chemical materials in the mining part and the final combine.  lube oil does not have HR, SR or UT stats so it counts as null in the equations.  This means you can use lube oil of any quality.
 
For the other sub parts : structure modules or walls, generator turbines and small storage modules, you do NOT need to use high quality materials and can use grind junk.
 
First of all make your mining components and experiment them as high as possible.  For the medium size parts the BER rating will max at 4 and for the heavies it will hit 6 maximum.  You should not only assure that you ahve max BER on the part of 4 or 6 but also make sure that your experimentation result is as far above 90% as you can get.
 
Finally when you have all your parts together then you can do the final combine.  Here again you want to make sure that all of the materials put into final combine are high quality steel, metals, ore and lube oil.  Then you just experiment the harvester up to the maximum of 10 or 13.  If you get any results less than great successes then it is likely that you will not hit maximum.
 
I highly recommend making a schematic for your harvesters if you are able to afford the resources.  Wasting the resources to make the schematic are a lot better than doing them one at a time by hand and getting sub standard product every 2nd or 3rd experimentation.
 
 
 

Message Edited by Pawlin on 02-05-2004 12:23 AM

Pawlin Construction of Kettemoor.
Harvesters and Crafting stations - Triad Coronet Mall just outside Coronet (-177 -5490)
Architect, House, Furniture, Harvester FAQ

Oprolan the Wookiee of Sunrunner. Cheap resources W. Daeric Talus (-639 -3058)
"Worst FF ever *thumbsdown*" -- Pawlin fan club
"I am not going to win Miss Congeniality again this year in the Senate." -- John McCain


** Please refer to Elyssa's answer
02-05-2004 12:20 AM  

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Re: How to make max BER 10 medium or BER 13 heavies.   [ Edited ]
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Dvnce
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I am actually attemption a elaborate test on gorath  atm to try to nail down some hard numbers on What is minimum for BER..  I will of course share the results when I finish..

and actually I have gotten some nice stuff that I should be able to get to 99% on ore mining unit.. and 99% on Final Assembly ..  that I will use on the high end..   then I am going to see how low quality i can get and still achieve max BER.. 

 

Message Edited by Dvnce on 02-05-2004 02:28 AM


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02-05-2004 02:11 AM  

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Re: How to make max BER 10 medium or BER 13 heavies.   [ Edited ]
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Bandola
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1. When making the main component (Ore Mining Unit/Fluidic Drill Pump/Harvesting Mechanism etc.) use only resources with high HR/SR/UT. Preferably these stats should all show above 900. The formula for calculating on this is HR+SR+UT+UT and the final result of this sum should be as close to 4000 as possible, but above 3600 for each resource used to be safe. It is possible to have one of your resources slightly below this as long as the other resources used compensates with higher stats, however, this carries a risk and only trial and error will tell you whether this will work or not, at least until somebody is prepared to try out different combinations to see how the varying quantities of different resources used calculate into the final result. The exception to the HR/SR/UT rule is for chemicals. When using chemicals it should be noted that they do not carry any HR (not suprisingly), other chemicals (e.g. Fiberplast) usually have a low SR rating, DO NOT USE THESE ! The low SR rating will pull down the final quality. So either find a chem with UT and SR over 900, or use something like Lube Oil or Known Liquid Petrochem Fuel, neither of which list SR at all. Why ? Because if the stat is not listed it will not be calculated in, it is important to understand that if a stat is missing, it does not count as '0' (as some believe) , nor does it count (as others believe) as '1000', it counts as 'NULL VALUE' . See following explanation for which I thank ZenDragon:

"Imagine that you have a schematic that needs 1 unit of metal and 1 unit of chemical. Imagine that UT is the only thing that matters. Your metal has a UT of 750. You have three chemicals (chemA, chemB, and chemC), with UT of 1000, 500, and 'none', respectively.
When you put things together in a schematic, the weighted average of the attributes of all the stuff is calculated.

So look what happens with chemA (simplified):
(750 + 1000) / (1 + 1) = 1750 / 2 = 875 - in this case the chemical, because it had a HIGHER UT, was able to 'improve' the mixture's final score.
Here is chemB:
(750 + 500) / (1 + 1) = 1250 / 2 = 625 - in this case the chemical, because it had a LOWER UT, was responsible for 'lowering' the mixture's final score.
Here is chemC:
(750 + null) / (1 + null) = 750 / 1 = 750 - in this case the chemical had 'no impact' on the final score, one way or another.

So, when we say "either use a chemical with 'very' high HR, SR, UT 'OR' use lube oil", we a using this understanding to say "either improve your mix or do nothing to the mix". Since architects focus almost exclusively on minerals and gather high HR, SR, UT steel, metal, and ore, it typically is the case that you have good scores from those. At that point you can search all over for a chemical that *beats* that score (which is likely rare and expensive) OR you can just use Lube Oil and not worry about it at all - let your minerals carry the load."

If you are making for example a Fluidic Drill Pump which requires the following resources:
100x Steel
200x Chemical
100x Chemical
35x Metal
150x Metal
the experimental efficiency of which is based on:
Heat Resistance: 25%
Shock Resistance: 25%
Unit Toughness: 50%
and say the resources you want to use to make one of these and the relevant stats they have are:
100x Steel: HR=950/SR=920/UT=970
200x Chemical A: HR/SR/ UT=0
100x Chemical B: HR/SR=0/UT=700
35x Metal A: HR=980/SR=990/UT=990
150x Metal B : HR=980/SR=990/UT=990

Then the Fluid Drill Pump you make will be:
100x(950+920+970+970)/4 +
NULL (as no relevant values are included for Chem A) +
100x(700+700)/2 +
35x(980+990+990+990)/4 +
150x(980+990+990+990)/4 = ALL
ALL /385 = 903.7 (385 because I have considered 200 of Chem A to be 'NULL', so Total resources 585-200=385)

Therefore the fully experimented Fluid Drill pump would come out at around 90% if fully experimented successfully.
It would then be easy to see how to improve the quality by using Chemical A in both slots (this would raise the final pump to an amazing 97%), allowing you to substitute for some slightly inferior (and therefore hopefully cheaper) steel or metal. For example, using Chemical A in both Chem slots, and using a Metal with HR/SR/UT all at 800 for Metal A would result in a final pump at 95% .
Likewise, if we took the original resources, and substituted Chemical A with a HR/SR=0/UT=960 Chemical we would see that this performs even better than a 'NULL' stat Chem, giving a final count of 92% on the pump against the original 90% one.
When assembling you should be looking for an efficiency % (extraction rate) result of 26 or above preferably. Experiment this unit all the way up to 92%+. If you get the required result (a BER 4 for components used in Mediums/BER 6 in heavies) WITH a 92%+ then think about making a schematic for a factory run if you have enough resources, it will save you risking criticals failures in future, make as many in the factory as you can. Rememer that if you are making heavies then you will need 2 identicals of this main component for each harvester anyway, so a factory run is mandatory in that case. Always with factory runs make more than you think you will need. E.g. if you plan to make 10 harvesters through a factory, then make the components for AT LEAST 2 more. (1 set will be used up in the schematic you make, and you should 'plan' for at least 1 critical fail during experimentation preventing you from reaching max BER.
** Please note, many architects stop as soon as their 'mining unit' reaches the required BER rating, you should not do this, although the final BER is critical for the efficiency of the final harvester, it is NOT enough merely to reach BER4 or 6, you really do need to experiment up as far as you can, a 92% efficient BER 6 unit will allow you to make a BER 13 harvester, a 85% efficient BER 6 unit probably won't.

2. ALL other components can be made out of the cheapest resources you can lay your hands on. None of the stats matter for things such as walls, generator turbines etc.

3. For the final assembly use your high quality main component, all the other low quality components you have made and once again the BEST resources you can get. The rules here are the same as for the main component, HR+SR+UT+UT = 3600-4000. Again the same applies to the Chemical as stated above. Now experiment until you reach the desired BER. If you have done this right you should find that when you start to experiment you will be able to experiment to the max on efficiency (extraction rate). You will be able to tell instantly if this is possible by looking at the experimentation bar, if the last slot is elongated slightly you will be able to make it, it is possible to reach the top BER even if you do not see the last bar, but it will be risky. Pray you do not get any critical failures during experimentation as this will bring down the final BER. So, if you reach 10/13 BER (depending on whether you are making medium or heavies) and still have an experimentation point left it is recomended that you STOP EXPERIMENTING, otherwise you risk dropping the BER with a critical failure. DO NOT use the last experimentation point on the storage capacity unless you like to gamble, a critical fail here will not only affect the storage but it will often also bring down the BER.

From Joska :
I know there has been discussion on how strucure complexity factors into harvesters and BER. I have been contemplating it myself for a while as well. The other day I had noticed, while crafting a harvester that the BER listed was lower than what i had it up to.... so i began paying real close attention to my process. Here is what I was doing:
I would put 2 points into Efficiency and experiment and inchworm my way up to the max BER. Once I hit the max BER, I switched to Storage. I was shooting for max BER and the most storage I could get. Well, as I got things down, I found the least number of points of experimentation I could use to get the max BER (ie just barely getting BER to it's max number. eg 13 for heavy min harvs). As I followed this method, I began to notice a number of harvesters having BER 12 instead of 13 that I had gotten them up to. Now, I know if you fail on Storage, it can bring down the Efficiency enough to lower the BER... but it was dropping on me even when I was succeeding on storage experimentation. A few more BER 12s and I was convinced of what was happening: I saw the BER go from 13 to 12 on a great success in storage experimentation. This perplexed me until I noticed that the only thing that changed other than storage % was COMPLEXITY. Then going back over my algorithm for crafting these, it made sense. I was getting JUST enough in Efficiency to get max BER, so the BER must be calculated by factoring in hte complexity. This is either dome empiricly as [Experimentation factor] - [Complexity factor], or [Experimentation factor] / [Complexity factor]. Either way would lower BER as complexity grew. But BERs lowering as complexity grows, I know for a fact. I have proven it to myself mathmatically and in game a couple ways now.

Reegan postulated:
final BER = base rate + floor((mining component quality + final assembly quality)/25)
I did a bit more fine grained testing and found that on the high end, my formula was a little closer than I thought. Best test I've had so far is 89% OMU + 88% Final = 13 BER
I'm pretty sure I have tried 88% + 88% and had that stuck at 12 BER before, but without my notes I'm not sure.
But, in any case, the higher you can get the mining subcomponent quality, the easier it is to hit the magical 13 BER, so what I've been doing to 'stretch' my resources is to churn out the OMU/Drills at as high a % as possible, then use a mix of the good stuff with some 'not quite up to snuff' resources. If you don't mind doing the extra math, it can save you a bit of money if you have to buy your resources,

4. Now you should have a deed for a top rated harvester, you can either make this, or you can make a schematic for a factory run, but bear in mind that in a factory, ALL the components and resources must be IDENTICAL to make multiple harvesters. The exception here (there always seems to be an exception, doesn't there) is walls, which can be any walls you have available.

5. Fusion Generators are a little different, at the moment it is not possible to experiment these. The current max possible BER is 14. Since you cannot experiment you will not get any disadvantage by subsituting some lower quality resources in the final combine. It is however still recommended that you use a top quality OMU and that the resources are in the high 800s, i.e. around 880+ for each of HR/SR/UT giving a HR+SR+UT+UT result of 3500+. Unfortunately nobody has yet run a conclusive test for what the minimum requirement is for reaching max BER. Once you have combined everything you will only have the option to experiment for hopper size, most people do this as it is the only thing that differentiates one from another, but this may also carry the risk of lowering BER if you get a critical failure on the first attempt. You should have a BER 14 Fusion at the end, if not, check your resource stats again, especially ensure you are following the rules for the chemicals as specified above.

Useful additional info:

The quality of the resources/components directly affects how well you can experiment. The lower the quality resources used, the less experimentation points you can use. This does not mean you have any less available to you, but the number of these you can actually make use of will decrease.

If you get a critical failure on the final combine, don't worry, just hit assemble again and carry on, smile because you just got rid of one critical that could have popped up during experimentation.

It has been suggested that MA (malleability) may affect experimentation on the hopper size, this is difficult to confirm since very few experimentation points remain after reaching max BER. No conclusive tests have been run and at the moment none are planned.

Experimentation appears to increase the complexity of the item made. Factory time is a factor of complexity, each unit takes 8 seconds per complexity point to manufacture n a factory. There does not however appear to be any increase in the factory time for a fully experimented item versus an unexperimented. Therefore I surmise that factory time is Base complexity * 8 seconds per unit.
Joska again:
here is my data from Complexity vs factory time:
Item = Light Ore Mining Unit
run: BER Orig/Final, Exper Efficiency % Orig/Final, Complexity Orig/Final, time per unit
1:2/4, 27/77, 13/23, 104
2:2/3, 27/71, 13/15, 104
3:2/1, 27/00, 13/14, 104
4:2/4, 27/94, 13/15, 104
Therefore, we can conclude that only the original schematic complexity plays a factor and not the items's final experimented complexity. And the equation of time(secs) = 8*[orig complexity] is correct.

You do not need to be Master Architect to make max BER Harvesters, it helps but is not crucial. It is possible to do so with only 9 or even 8 experimentation points. You will receive bonuses to Structure Experimentation as you climb the skill tree starting with +20 at Novice Architect and gaining +10 at Construction I, +20 at each of Construction II, III and IV, and a final +10 at Master Architect, each +10 bonus gives an additional experimentation point to use giving a total of 10 at Master Architect. If you are Human you get a starting Bonus +10 so you will have 11 points. You can also increase by a maximum of +25 (strange why it is not maxed at +20 since you need +10 for each point), by obtaining skill tapes (clothing attachments), but you will need a full +10 before you receive any bonus.

Working in a city with Research Center rating seems to help with the success of experimentation.

Thanks to all contributors, keep it coming please.

Message Edited by Bandola on 02-18-2004 04:38 AM

Message Edited by Bandola on 07-26-2004 12:21 AM


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02-05-2004 02:21 AM  

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Re: How to make max BER 10 medium or BER 13 heavies.
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Grisbilen
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remember, stop experimenting on efficency when you hit 10 or 13 (NO, you cannot make 11 or 14!), and use the rest of the points for hopper size (beware of crits here thou as it will lower the BER by 1).



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02-05-2004 06:45 AM  

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Re: How to make max BER 10 medium or BER 13 heavies.
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Numen
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I've found in most cases the ore stats will not matter much.  If all you want is a 13 BER or 10 BER and you don't care if you don't get one point in hopper size, crap ore has tended to work for me.
 
This of course depends a lot on the steel you use
 
97% Unit and 80% Final is a BER 13
97% Unit and 73% Final is a BER 12
 
Here is my theory on the numbers.  I haven't had time to test this out though.
 
The mining/harvestor item starts at 3 and for each 25% it gains 1 more.  So 75% it is exactly BER 6(3+3).  Higher than that just goes closer and closer to 7(3+4).
 
The same is true for the Harvestor.  It starts out at 3 and for each 25% it gains exactly 1 more.
 
So Base is 6.  Now just add the 2 %'s and divide by 25.  Add that number to the 6 and you have the BER.
 
This has been the case for me in every schematic I've made.  Sadly I haven't written all of them down to give some hard data.  I do know the cutoff for the mining unit is at 75% or very close to that.
 
 
Now onto the issue with the BER going down with a crit fail on the hopper.  There doesn't seem to be any viewable sign that the BER experiment line has gone down at all.  It happens because all experiment rolls roll all of them.  I've never seen something other than what I'm experimenting on go up though so I can't explain this one.

Amandil Morier - Tempest - Master Chef
02-05-2004 07:27 AM  

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Re: How to make max BER 10 medium or BER 13 heavies.
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Pawlin
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Bandola wrote:

Hey, glad to see you are going to keep this updated, I started a while back but couldn't keep it all pulled together, anyways, here is what I have collected so far, it's a bit long, but if you can tidy it up it could be well worth stickying.

....

Heck, did I really write that much ? Thanks to everybody who has contributed to the info above, and good luck tidying it up Pawlin !


/takes one step backwards.

Bandola I really think that you should have the honor of running this thread.  Your post outweighs mine by about 500% and has everything I said and more.
 
 
 

Pawlin Construction of Kettemoor.
Harvesters and Crafting stations - Triad Coronet Mall just outside Coronet (-177 -5490)
Architect, House, Furniture, Harvester FAQ

Oprolan the Wookiee of Sunrunner. Cheap resources W. Daeric Talus (-639 -3058)
"Worst FF ever *thumbsdown*" -- Pawlin fan club
"I am not going to win Miss Congeniality again this year in the Senate." -- John McCain


** Please refer to Elyssa's answer
02-05-2004 09:26 AM  

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Re: How to make max BER 10 medium or BER 13 heavies.
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Baccarat
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This is a fantastic thread and addresses many of the questions i've had.

Now the hard part is to keep a good supply of special hi HR/DR/UT ore for harvs Seems to me that this is the hardest thing to get, and makes a big difference.

Here's another question.. is there any way i can avoid those occasional critical fails? I have 15.00 tools, high HR/DR/UT resources and (I think but not sure) a decent crafting station. And I live in a manufacturing center. Is there anything else i can do to reduce the incidence of crit fails?

Furia, Kavala, Xana, Tarantella (Xana's alt, before NGE), all cancelled.(3 accts total)
02-05-2004 10:57 AM  

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Re: How to make max BER 10 medium or BER 13 heavies.
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Pawlin
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Baccarat wrote:

Here's another question.. is there any way i can avoid those occasional critical fails? I have 15.00 tools, high HR/DR/UT resources and (I think but not sure) a decent crafting station. And I live in a manufacturing center. Is there anything else i can do to reduce the incidence of crit fails?




Not that we're sure about.  Its possible that structure assembly tapes might help improve your success rates.  But that is still being tested.

Pawlin Construction of Kettemoor.
Harvesters and Crafting stations - Triad Coronet Mall just outside Coronet (-177 -5490)
Architect, House, Furniture, Harvester FAQ

Oprolan the Wookiee of Sunrunner. Cheap resources W. Daeric Talus (-639 -3058)
"Worst FF ever *thumbsdown*" -- Pawlin fan club
"I am not going to win Miss Congeniality again this year in the Senate." -- John McCain


** Please refer to Elyssa's answer
02-05-2004 11:15 AM  

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Re: How to make max BER 10 medium or BER 13 heavies.
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Grisbilen
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well, to decrease failure rate you can ofocurse make a schematic and run a factory run



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02-05-2004 05:51 PM  

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Re: How to make max BER 10 medium or BER 13 heavies.
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Bandola
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Pawlin wrote:
Bandola I really think that you should have the honor of running this thread. 



Hehe, oh well, I don't mind keeping this going as long as everybody who has any input continues to contribute. I know there will be useful snippets in other posts that could form a part of this, so if anybody spots something that they think would be worthy of mentioning here then please add it to this thread. I will keep this going and add to it as I can, from time to time I will start a new thread with a summary of all the information gathered. I will also look to see if the info can be condensed without losing any vital details.
 
Dvnce - any chance you can sticky this so that we can get as much added to it as possible ?


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02-06-2004 12:24 AM  

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Re: How to make max BER 10 medium or BER 13 heavies.
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Bandola
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looks like the same questions reappearing already, So this gets a bump


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02-09-2004 12:36 AM  

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Re: How to make max BER 10 medium or BER 13 heavies.
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Erillion
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Reminder:

working in a city with Research center rating HELPS A LOT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rate of experimentation failures is down significantly and number of exceptional successes up significantly.

Have fun

Novarider Tam

 

02-09-2004 12:51 AM  

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Re: How to make max BER 10 medium or BER 13 heavies.
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Bandola
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thx Novarider, exactly the kind of input I am looking for !


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02-09-2004 01:39 AM  

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Re: How to make max BER 10 medium or BER 13 heavies.
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Maabus1999
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Good info here, thanks guys.

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02-09-2004 07:54 AM  

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Re: How to make max BER 10 medium or BER 13 heavies.
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Crusadiar
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what statistic determins the experimenation of the harvestor

Hohiro Kurita
02-09-2004 08:58 AM  

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