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wildcat
Admin Cabal
Joined: Dec 23, 2007
Posts: 166
Location: Huntington, WV
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 Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:09 am Post subject: |
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And I will argue that classic servers remain the SOLE way that LucasArts can restore the value of the Star Wars IP for a MMO.
I have literally zero interest in SWGNGE. I have about the same for any successor, be it made by SOE or anyone else. |
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prime8
Just off the shuttle
Joined: Dec 24, 2007
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 11:23 am Post subject: |
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wildcat
I agree , if SOE and LucasArts don't or won't admit they have made a mistake and are prepared to put things right then there is no "going forward" they are forever tarnished by their past . |
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Owen-Lars
Novice Brawler
Joined: Dec 30, 2007
Posts: 76
Location: Leeds, England
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:00 am Post subject: |
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| Dvol wrote: | .. Hell why not have hte casual an hardcore market in two seperate games you own..Freaking genius IMO..
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This is exactly how i feel about the wowclone thing vs the more deep/sandbox mmo. Both have huge potential and a massive market but are clearly two major parts of the market.
Some love the wow linear experience just as long as they can go all pasty with delight at doing raids for hours and hours and hours and not having to worry about other aspects of the game. You can basically take your time, deduct monthly costs and bang! that equals your fun.
The other side of the market like to take their experience then deduct the monthly cost and then that equals their fun.
Two very slight but important differences in customer. One craves fun for their time, others crave fun for their experiences. Whereas one group wants to spend their time and get given their rewards on a plate and in a very linear sense (i.e. you get a virtual reward/gear/item), the sandbox player will prefer something more like more knowledge of a certain area of the game, better understanding of the pvp systems or where to go for that herbivor meat at a certain season.
Personally, i dont expect their to be any mmos that support the sandbox players for a while to come. When they do we need depth in every aspect of the game but presented in a way that can easily be looked past. For instance, you could have a full seasonal system, weather trends, environmental effects that are tied to crop cycles, migration patterns, access to certain areas and prime hunting seasons. You could have a feature that allows you to dive into all these patterns and cycles but for those not really interested in diving in but want an overview, the system could be presented with easy to understand visual cues. Sunny days means good for crops, snow means migration, leaves browning and falling means prime hunting season, spring flowers and sun means planing season and return of various fauna.
That is key to making a new sandbox mmo. You need incredibly deep systems but presented in way that doesn't impede those not wanting a great amount of detail. The detail needs to be deep yet easily understood and interpreted by someone just looking for an overview. Its the same with crafting. You can either craft for the experience or craft for mastery. One is just scrapping the surface enough to entertain, the other is diving deep into the mechanics of crafting for the fun and the challenge. It would be down to the player what level they go in at, and thats the whole point. You are given the choice.
With WoW and LOTRO you are treated like a child and not allowed to deviate from the set linear path in anyway. If you are interested in being a farmer you just buy new seeds and off you go. There is not support for those wanting to really dive into the farming aspects increasing yields, developing new plants for medicine, food, clothing, or building materials. Its just a plain point and click system that really really pisses me off. I want detail, i want to be able to dive into an aspect of the game that interests me greatly.
SWG was the first and last game i have played that supported that to a degree. It had certain areas of the game where you could get involved in outside of combat. Decorating your house was another thing. You didnt need a house but if you did you could pick the type, decorate it etc. It was incredibly deep yet incredibly simple to do to a basic level. I would like to see more than this too with customisable plots etc and architects that have to physically build your house (as in placing walls etc and spending time working on the creation as opposed to laying bricks).
Anyway, i hope im making sense. Basically there is a massive market out there of players wanted depth in their game especially out of combat. |
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AfroPuff
Just off the shuttle
Joined: Dec 28, 2007
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:33 am Post subject: |
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I follow you. Like I said, I think that we'll get there as game features mature and move from "Hey, that's novel!" to "wtf, that's standard!" over the course of time. But it will take epocs if left up to big league professional development studios to evolve us. . . AAA MMOGs take too much time and are just too expensive to make.
If we're ever to see a whole lot in the way of rapid iteration, it has to become a hobbyist's thing. I'm hoping to see useful and powerful and affordable (read free or nearly free) world building tools come online where, like Jeff says, people are building all these little 3D worlds all over the place.
The good VW's catch on, and even if the real pro's swoop in to get a piece of the action, that's fine by me - it's healthy.
-edit-
hmm... seems we're a little off topic. Imagine that. Looks like it's time for me to head on over to Tera Nova. |
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Dvol
Just off the shuttle
Joined: Dec 29, 2007
Posts: 37
Location: Go Vols!!!
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:45 am Post subject: |
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| Owen-Lars wrote: | | Dvol wrote: | .. Hell why not have hte casual an hardcore market in two seperate games you own..Freaking genius IMO..
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This is exactly how i feel about the wowclone thing vs the more deep/sandbox mmo. Both have huge potential and a massive market but are clearly two major parts of the market.
Some love the wow linear experience just as long as they can go all pasty with delight at doing raids for hours and hours and hours and not having to worry about other aspects of the game. You can basically take your time, deduct monthly costs and bang! that equals your fun.
The other side of the market like to take their experience then deduct the monthly cost and then that equals their fun.
Two very slight but important differences in customer. One craves fun for their time, others crave fun for their experiences. Whereas one group wants to spend their time and get given their rewards on a plate and in a very linear sense (i.e. you get a virtual reward/gear/item), the sandbox player will prefer something more like more knowledge of a certain area of the game, better understanding of the pvp systems or where to go for that herbivor meat at a certain season.
Personally, i dont expect their to be any mmos that support the sandbox players for a while to come. When they do we need depth in every aspect of the game but presented in a way that can easily be looked past. For instance, you could have a full seasonal system, weather trends, environmental effects that are tied to crop cycles, migration patterns, access to certain areas and prime hunting seasons. You could have a feature that allows you to dive into all these patterns and cycles but for those not really interested in diving in but want an overview, the system could be presented with easy to understand visual cues. Sunny days means good for crops, snow means migration, leaves browning and falling means prime hunting season, spring flowers and sun means planing season and return of various fauna.
That is key to making a new sandbox mmo. You need incredibly deep systems but presented in way that doesn't impede those not wanting a great amount of detail. The detail needs to be deep yet easily understood and interpreted by someone just looking for an overview. Its the same with crafting. You can either craft for the experience or craft for mastery. One is just scrapping the surface enough to entertain, the other is diving deep into the mechanics of crafting for the fun and the challenge. It would be down to the player what level they go in at, and thats the whole point. You are given the choice.
With WoW and LOTRO you are treated like a child and not allowed to deviate from the set linear path in anyway. If you are interested in being a farmer you just buy new seeds and off you go. There is not support for those wanting to really dive into the farming aspects increasing yields, developing new plants for medicine, food, clothing, or building materials. Its just a plain point and click system that really really pisses me off. I want detail, i want to be able to dive into an aspect of the game that interests me greatly.
SWG was the first and last game i have played that supported that to a degree. It had certain areas of the game where you could get involved in outside of combat. Decorating your house was another thing. You didnt need a house but if you did you could pick the type, decorate it etc. It was incredibly deep yet incredibly simple to do to a basic level. I would like to see more than this too with customisable plots etc and architects that have to physically build your house (as in placing walls etc and spending time working on the creation as opposed to laying bricks).
Anyway, i hope im making sense. Basically there is a massive market out there of players wanted depth in their game especially out of combat. |
This is why i think Blizzard's next MMO will be more sanbox in game style an play. They have the market on the easymode game. Which i find stupid really considering SWG allowed you to do what ever the hell you wanted when you wanted...How is that not causal..Blizzard has stated several times their next game will be nothing like wow's gameplay..So knowing that wouldnt it be a safe bet it will be more hardcore? Or sandboxy in nature? Something to think about when you own one market with no other publisher coming close too you in sub base..
I dont understand the reasons game developers view SWG's style as not casual.. I could do anything i wanted for as little or as long as i wanted. The profession system appealed too a wide range of gamer types. This game appealed too a large female base most games dont..Hmmm....Game developers need to focus on how SWG did this and understand it was the lack of polish an total ignorance of the Dev team that kept it in the black. Ive gamed for over 31 years now an i would like too see more games like it. Less Wow more player focused options not restrictions..
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E-Feelings nothing more than hurt E-feelings.....E-tissues optional. |
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Dundee
Just off the shuttle
Joined: Jan 13, 2008
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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| prime8 wrote: | You would think the good will alone generated by offering origional game servers would be worth the cost to SOE , not taking into account i'm sure origional game servers would more than pay their way , it's not like SOE can pick and choose at this stage good press is good press .
cheers |
Actually, SOE's about the only company with a history of running games as long as their profitable on a going-forward basis, even in cases where the number of players is low and the development costs were high, etc. It's hard to imagine they'd have a problem running a game that isn't even in that category, considering some of the other games they're still running.
It's just not their call, and I don't think it's LEC's call either. It's LucasFilm's IP.
They probably make decisions based on the value of the IP, as they see it... which they're very unlikely to estimate as being worthless regardless of the context.
So either LEC or SOE or both seeking LucasFilm to essentially "donate" the IP for what would be - in SW IP use terms - a trivial profit at most (and even that, as this thread demonstrates, is debatable)... I just can't imagine it receiving a thumbs-up from them.
If LucasFilm authorizes the license's use in the MMO space, it's going to be for something they hope to be bigger than WoW - a SWG classic server, that ain't.
Regarding LEC or SOE's enthusiasm for doing it - well, that's just pure speculation on my part, and my opinion is no better informed than any of yours.
I just think, if I were SOE, I'd be pretty leery of making or extending any agreements in which I'd be taking responsibility for someone's else's unpopular decisions. Especially if I were perfectly capable of making unpopular decisions on my own.
Meanwhile, LEC's been focusing on improving their image overall - canceling the sort of 'poop in a box with a SW logo'-projects they were starting to be known for and trying to establish an association between their logo and good games. If not for contractual obligations, they'd probably have canceled SWG regardless of profitability just to eliminate one more game with their logo and a meta-critic rating of 69 being out there.
But like I said, that's just pure speculation on my part: What I think might be fairly valid reasons for either of them not to be too enthused about doing it... but for all I know completely wrong and altogether overwhelmed by a desire to do it based on the also entirely valid reasons other have listed here.
Bottom line is LEC has a little more authority than SOE's zero-authority to make that decision, but ultimately I don't think it matter whether either of them want to do it or not.
It's LucasFilm's decision, and I'd bet all they know about the subject is that even the people who did like SWG - of which there weren't nearly as many as there should have been - don't like it now.
Someone's asking for permission to do what? They probably have that person quartered and bury the body parts separately in each corner of the Ranch, then line the drive from the front-gate with the heads of people asking questions like that on spikes, to serve as a warning to others.
Metaphorically speaking.
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--Jeff Freeman
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wildcat
Admin Cabal
Joined: Dec 23, 2007
Posts: 166
Location: Huntington, WV
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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IF LEC/Lucasfilm has no clue as to the issues behind SWG, then they are truly stupid.
If they want to improve their image, classic SWG servers would do more than anything else outside of editing EP1 and removing Jar Jar.
You can't improve your image unless you attack the root cause behind what is reducing it. SWG is the biggest open sore the IP has in the gaming world.
And, again, if SOE is being handcuffed by LEC, I don't see why they don't make that public, and why they don't just cancel the game. Today I had someone tell me that the active PAYING subs are down to 12.5K. 3 months ago the same source called it 27K. At this point I don't see SOE as having anything to gain by keeping this game around. And if LEC is what you say they are, they have much more to gain by outing that.
They can't be making money on it at those numbers, either of them.
Of course, the fanbois are now embarking on a project to post overly positive reviews and to seed the message boards with pro-NGE sentiment, which suggests to me that one or more of them know that the game is in imminent danger of closure. I am thoroughly convinced that amongst the vocal SOE apologists are SOE employees, so I would surmise that there is indeed genuine panic going on over there. I guess they think that a vocal minority (which they still think we are) can make things happen. Of course it can, when it represents the MAJORITY, as we did...
I also point out that to this point in the DeadMeat era, they never have released a chapter publish without outlining specifically what the next one will be. Which tells me that it may not happen at all. The only thing that they've done is say that 2008 will have vague profession changes to the existing expertise, and that they will be adding more collections and instances. Unlike the past when he'd outline exactly what the NEXT chapter would be. Never has it been more in doubt as to what the immediate next publish would be about than it is now.
Funny that someone sent me a PM 6 months ago telling me that Chapter 9 would never happen. I didn't believe that then, but...
In all honesty, the fanbois have it better than they should have. At it's current sub levels, SWG shouldn't be getting anything above minimal bug/exploit fixes. It doesn't merit any development at all.
I would be shocked if SWG is still open by this summer.
It's going to take LucasFilm PAYING someone to keep it open, I don't see that happening. Lucas is all about making money from the Star Wars IP.
Of course at this point I hold LucasArts and George Lucas second in my contempt only to SOE for abuse of Star Wars. So do many others. |
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Dvol
Just off the shuttle
Joined: Dec 29, 2007
Posts: 37
Location: Go Vols!!!
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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it makes perfect sense why they wont. Look at who Bioware just announced a joint venture with. Reguardless of speculation makes sens that it will be another Star Wars MMO. LEC threw tons of cash at them an said can you do better? This after many post by Bioware stating they would never do another outside IP, just their own. Funny how money changes attitudes. Classic servers would just make too much sense. Even if the subbase was 100k its still 10 times what the current one is. Ive never known a company too turn down that much revenue without either(a) Having something in the pipeline that is 100% sure too make tons-o-cash or (b) Wants too see their cash an Ip slung in the mud for the last 4 years. I would choose A since it makes the most sense why they refuse too rollback or offer a classic game.
We can speculate all day long the reasons why. I have for years scratched my head in awe at the stupidity that comes outa the game industry. They either make a game that is great but so bugged an unplayable it tanks, or change it so much you just lose intrest,or hype it up only to find it wasnt what was promised( Tabula Rasa,SWG,Lotro, many others)..I would be suprised if Biowares MMO isnt Star Wars. That is the only thing that would make sense as too why SWG isnt reverted back or massively changed again. I am one who believes its should either revamp a 3rd time or just give up an rollback to a time they know it had a huge fanbase. Neither will happen which is why for the first time i think SWG's lifespan is short.
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E-Feelings nothing more than hurt E-feelings.....E-tissues optional. |
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Dundee
Just off the shuttle
Joined: Jan 13, 2008
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| wildcat wrote: | | IF LEC/Lucasfilm has no clue as to the issues behind SWG, then they are truly stupid. |
The point is, you can't fairly lump them together like that, "LEC/Lucasfilm".... two entirely different companies in two entirely different businesses.
| Quote: | | If they want to improve their image, classic SWG servers would do more than anything else outside of editing EP1 and removing Jar Jar. |
I think LEC has improved its image. Thanks to Battlefront, KotoR, LEGO SW, people are much less likely to see "Star Wars" on a box and think "crap!"
| Quote: | | You can't improve your image unless you attack the root cause behind what is reducing it. SWG is the biggest open sore the IP has in the gaming world. |
They might agree with you completely, for all I know... but it's not their decision to make.
If LucasFilm has or intends to grant the exclusive MMO rights to SW to anyone, they'd vigorously maintain that exclusivity. The rights aren't worth anywhere near as much, otherwise.
| Quote: | | And, again, if SOE is being handcuffed by LEC, I don't see why they don't make that public, and why they don't just cancel the game. |
Because they might like to do business with LEC in the future (but certainly as a publisher), and so as not to be in breach of their current contract are two reasons that come to mind.
| Quote: | Today I had someone tell me that the active PAYING subs are down to 12.5K. 3 months ago the same source called it 27K. At this point I don't see SOE as having anything to gain by keeping this game around. And if LEC is what you say they are, they have much more to gain by outing that.
They can't be making money on it at those numbers, either of them. |
I'd be surprised if they were not making money running it, and they probably can't unilaterally decide to cancel it as long as they are.
Also it's worthwhile to keep 20 experienced developers on-staff - or even utilize it as a training-vehicle to make more of them - rather than releasing those people to the competition.
Experience is had to come by, and live-experience even more-so.
| Quote: | | Of course, the fanbois are now embarking on a project to post overly positive reviews and to seed the message boards with pro-NGE sentiment, which suggests to me that one or more of them know that the game is in imminent danger of closure. I am thoroughly convinced that amongst the vocal SOE apologists are SOE employees, so I would surmise that there is indeed genuine panic going on over there. I guess they think that a vocal minority (which they still think we are) can make things happen. Of course it can, when it represents the MAJORITY, as we did... |
The planetside players did the same thing: it was a reaction to there being no marketing support from the company, by players who genuinely liked the game and wanted it to survive.
I don't think SOE would risk being discovered pulling a stunt like that, even if otherwise they felt like it was a smart idea.
My sense of the situation is that SOE doesn't ever think about boosting SWGs numbers any more - that they're just letting it run along without all the wacky ideas to re-energize it that historically have not served them well...
| Quote: | | Never has it been more in doubt as to what the immediate next publish would be about than it is now. |
That might also indicate a restructuring of the team (which will happen from time to time for a couple of reasons). A period of "wtf" tends to follow, and they never have been any good at just telling everyone what's going on.
| Quote: | | I would be shocked if SWG is still open by this summer. |
I'm trying to recall if the length of the agreement was ever made public, and what it was... it's bound to be getting into old-age by now.
| Quote: | | Lucas is all about making money from the Star Wars IP. |
That's essentially the business they are in, to a large degree. It's like Coca Cola... they don't make soda pop, they license a brand name to your local bottler and market a brand image to consumers.
LucasFilm doesn't make video games, toys, children's p.j.'s, shampoo, etc. etc. etc.
| Quote: | | Of course at this point I hold LucasArts and George Lucas second in my contempt only to SOE for abuse of Star Wars. So do many others. |
I was pretty disappointed with ep's 1 and 2... 3 wasn't so bad, but still wasn't as good as any of the originals.
And to have waited 30 years for that, too... man.
Still, not as bad as what they did to the Matrix. Man I felt bad for the devs working on that game, having begin work using the hottest IP since Star Wars only to have it - by the time they finished - transformed into ... a much less cool IP than it had been.
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--Jeff Freeman
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prime8
Just off the shuttle
Joined: Dec 24, 2007
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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Dundee
"Going forward" ouch I hate those words or at least how the spin doctors use them these days , SWG NGE is going every which way BUT forward , SOE/LEC/LucasFilms who ever is in charge thinks they can spin their way out if they can just stick their heads in the sand a bit longer and ride out the storm , I think they are in fact doing greater damage to the IP than they realize , the next incarnation of SWG my be tarnished by this as well no matter who makes it .
"Someone's asking for permission to do what"
There you have it They just can't see it though , you have to spend a bit to make a bit , in this case a small investment now , origional game servers could reep a huge reward later (good will) not just for SWG now , and not just for SOE all involved could beniffit from putting this one to sleep even people like yourself who i'm sure would like this all to go away finally .
cheers |
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Owen-Lars
Novice Brawler
Joined: Dec 30, 2007
Posts: 76
Location: Leeds, England
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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I hate to say it but if and when the new Star Wars MMO sees the light of day, if its a good game (maybe not to our liking but good none the less) then i think all resentment towards LEC/LF will be completely washed over and forgot about by the masses.
That being said, i honestly think that if SOE do not make this great next Star Wars MMO then the resentment of the masses towards SOE will continue, and continue indefinitely until they put out something genuinely 'next gen' in terms of MMOs. They made a massive cockup in a very public way and will continue to be associated with that cockup until they do something to show they can make great MMOs.
It is because of these two points that i see LEC/LF just putting their heads in the sand until this next Star Wars MMO is played by the masses. I think they see that SWG really isnt harming them much, and that with a good MMO release based on the Star Wars IP will completely change opinion around. Its also the reason why (i really really hate to say this but) out of all the big MMO developers, i see SOE as being the ones who will most likely do something unique in terms of MMO depth in the future.
I know, i know, i feel dirty saying that but if SOE are to turn things around, they need to corner an area of the market and release something great. I doubt they will be able to pull in the IPs like they did in years gone, so expect maybe a new IP being used but marketed as a new MMO mechanic (sandbox in other words) or something that makes that MMO unique. I have as much resentment towards SOE as anyone but i think that as well as a few WoW knockoffs they will release in the next decade, it is entirely possible that they implement a recovery strategy to try and get back on top and you can guarantee this strategy will be highlighting gaps in the market and trying to get a firm grip of them.
They simply cannot take on WoWs might at this time, however they can isolate a part of the market and still dominate in that. Who knows, we could end up seeing our most resented developer be the only ones who put out the type of game we love on a big scale. Of course when that happens we will no doubt see pigs flying through a frozen hell and Americans calling football by its true name, not that soccer crap (in other words not a very big chance) but i see SOE doing a lot of strategic planning and expect something in the next couple of years that will attempt to turn the company around.
Now to wash my mouth out with acid  |
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prime8
Just off the shuttle
Joined: Dec 24, 2007
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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Owen-Lars
you are indeed an optimist
cheers |
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wildcat
Admin Cabal
Joined: Dec 23, 2007
Posts: 166
Location: Huntington, WV
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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I think that the NGE has devalued the Star Wars IP for a MMO for at least the next decade. Any company licensing it, even if "exclusive" is going to be overpaying, as they will inherit, fairly or unfairly, it's legacy.
Sad but true.
Now with PE already damaging the Star Trek IP rights with their shenanigans I see BOTH my favorite Sci-Fi IPs, both would seem to be a match made in heaven for a virtual world game unlikely to ever be done properly.
Really, the best hope for us is for CCP to add a true ground game after ambulation in EVE. |
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JediGeek
Just off the shuttle
Joined: Dec 24, 2007
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:35 am Post subject: |
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| wildcat wrote: | I think that the NGE has devalued the Star Wars IP for a MMO for at least the next decade. Any company licensing it, even if "exclusive" is going to be overpaying, as they will inherit, fairly or unfairly, it's legacy.
Sad but true.
Now with PE already damaging the Star Trek IP rights with their shenanigans I see BOTH my favorite Sci-Fi IPs, both would seem to be a match made in heaven for a virtual world game unlikely to ever be done properly.
Really, the best hope for us is for CCP to add a true ground game after ambulation in EVE. |
The Star Wars IP has been horribly tarnished by SWG. Obviously, I've always been a HUGE Star Wars fan. Read dozens of EU books, played almost every SW game ever made, can quote the original trilogy from start to finish, etc. Ever since the NGE, I don't think I've watched any of the SW movies more than once or twice. I think I watched the original trilogy once about a year ago. That's about it.
I used to watch them on a fairly regular basis. I'd even have them on while I was playing Pre CU SWG. I've lost almost all interest in Star Wars right now.
All because of the NGE and what it did to Star Wars. I also know I'm not alone. People don't realize that not only is NGE damaging SOE and LA as far as gaming goes, but it's causing Star Wars itself to lose fans. That's bad.
_________________
Eve: Cardoh Dycen
SWG Tempest: Cardo Dycen R.I.P.
WoW: Too many to name
CoH/CoV: Don't remember  |
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wildcat
Admin Cabal
Joined: Dec 23, 2007
Posts: 166
Location: Huntington, WV
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:50 am Post subject: |
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You know, since the NGE, other than buying a copy of EP3, I've quit consuming anything Star Wars. I used to buy and read the books.
I haven't in 2 years. And you know, until you pointed this out, I hadn't even given it any thought. |
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