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Freeman's MMO canned by NC Soft
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BlackTurtle13
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

You guys realize that every MMO i have tried in the last 2 years ther is allways a remark about SWG at least once in the chat window. The remarks varry, but majority is how much the game is missed. Some of these chats got me thinking how the MMO they are in now reminds them in a small part of SWG. Make comparisons of the game they are in vs SWG. If SWG went classic how they would drop the mmo they were in a go play it..How bad the Devs were to them, how bad the gameplay changes became.

3 years since that game was on a live server yet generates a conversation in other Games on a regular basis. Log in type something about SWG an see how many responses you get..90% of its how bad they miss it. If that doesnt scream money i dont know what does.. Bean counters you reading this? Im sure you are. Make a sandbox game with many of the old games features an polish it up....Simple yet we get a rehashed WoWclone allways.SWG couldnt have been the turd SoE made it out too be. i mean why would so many miss a turd? I dont miss the NGE.


Greetings,

I am a long time “lurker” and very rare poster (as in Bigfoot rare). Thank you for the forums here, and the opportunity to make a brief comment.

I happen to agree wholeheartedly with Mr. Dvol's comments above. Looking at what is coming down the pipe for MMORPGs is so disheartening to me and is very frustrating in all the “sameness”. I don't know if is due to my age (37) or just having a lot more experience in gaming overall, but most of the games I have tried fall way short in so many areas to the SWG pre-cu. SWG was my first MMORPG I played and I'm sure there is a touch of “first time” romanticism for any game like this, but it just had so much to offer. Even after all this time, I still just shake my head as to its loss, regardless of how it all went down.

However, I do consider myself very lucky, as I did jump ship very early in the “downfall”. I left just before the CU came about. I read extensively and nothing seemed to me to address the issues that I felt were more important and blaring than what was to be changed. I did try the game for maybe two days shortly after the NGE, and going in with 30 some character options in my memory and having only nine....(sigh/ cry)...”thats all I have to say about that”. Someone really, REALLY, dropped the ball on this one.

I currently play WoW with the occasional jaunts in to CoV when I experience a burnout. It is a good game and has a lot of fun things to offer. But as Mr. Dvol said: mention SWG in a chat, and you will hear many comments by disgruntled former players and what all they miss about the game. I think WoW has brought in a whole bunch of new players to the MMORPG genre. Many of them are kids, but not all, as in my case. I wonder if SWG would have stayed the course how many of them would have migrated over to what could/ should have been?

...anyway...back to the shadows. Thank you for your time.
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AfroPuff
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obee wrote:

How many games that were making a profit have been canceled to make room for a new game in the hopes of making more money? I would have to think that a company telling its customers 'This game is doing fine, we just think we can make a different game and make even more money with it.' would piss quite a few people off.

Canceling a game that is losing money, and redirecting resources to make a game that has a better chance to do so, would likely piss off a whole lot less people.

Doing either one and not offering refunds to customers who pre-paid for game time would likely result a lawsuits and possible fines.


The claim was of course, that they weren't able to keep Pre-CU going. Whether it was too expensive, operationally too hard or some combination of those two is unclear, since what little has been said by Red names (or former Red names) on this point has been pretty nebulous.

I don't see it. You've got 250K sticky, VW addicted customers who just aren't going anywhere soon. They had to feed two monsters, SOE and LEC, so maybe that makes the difference. But if it just comes down to not enough money coming in, how can it possibly be the case that enough is coming in now?
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wildcat
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obee wrote:
Dundee wrote:


Quote:
My God, how can ANYONE who's income depends COMPLETELY on people NOT hitting "cancel subscription" en mass EVER adopt that attitude?


That is the exact same decision that has been made every time an MMO has been canceled: boot the players that are still playing it out, assign the resources (i.e. employees, mostly) to making something else, which hopefully other people (and more of them) will like.

The only difference at all is in terms of communication with the players. Canceling a game and then shipping a different game later is straightforward, open, and honest.

I mean, that has never pissed you off, has it?



How many games that were making a profit have been canceled to make room for a new game in the hopes of making more money? I would have to think that a company telling its customers 'This game is doing fine, we just think we can make a different game and make even more money with it.' would piss quite a few people off.

Canceling a game that is losing money, and redirecting resources to make a game that has a better chance to do so, would likely piss off a whole lot less people.

Doing either one and not offering refunds to customers who pre-paid for game time would likely result a lawsuits and possible fines.


I quite honestly am shocked that in today's litigious age that SOE wasn't sued over the NGE.

I think such a suit would definitely have a chance of succeeding.
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kylrathin
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff, thanks for your honesty. I'm another one of those that were pissed beyond belief, lost everything I had been working on, thought SWG was the greatest platform for a game to be coming soon ever (yes I realized it needed more content and was depressed when all the profession balancing crap was happening instead), became part of the hate-SOE-crowd, etc. Part of that 250k Wildcat was talking about. Your willingness to put a face to the faceless corporation responsible for this disaster, especially when you no longer work for said organization, is pretty cool.

That said, I don't think anyone with half a brain (I don't know what I did with the other half) completely puts everything on you. Decisions like that are obviously made by large groups of people in suits in a boardroom - you pretty much said so yourself. And I know I, for one, am very curious to see if we'll ever see any of the others responsible for the NGE show any remorse, much less any emotional honesty as you have.

If you happen to still be reading, I do have a question. You mentioned you hated the "combat revamp". Are you referring to the CU that was implemented in April/May 2005? Or the CURB that was discussed with players for which GreenMarine drew up an unofficial design doc online but was never implemented? I'm guessing the former, but the latter was referred to more often by the name you used ("combat revamp") by players until the CU was implemented. Just curious.
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Obee
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AfroPuff wrote:
Obee wrote:

How many games that were making a profit have been canceled to make room for a new game in the hopes of making more money? I would have to think that a company telling its customers 'This game is doing fine, we just think we can make a different game and make even more money with it.' would piss quite a few people off.

Canceling a game that is losing money, and redirecting resources to make a game that has a better chance to do so, would likely piss off a whole lot less people.

Doing either one and not offering refunds to customers who pre-paid for game time would likely result a lawsuits and possible fines.


The claim was of course, that they weren't able to keep Pre-CU going. Whether it was too expensive, operationally too hard or some combination of those two is unclear, since what little has been said by Red names (or former Red names) on this point has been pretty nebulous.

I don't see it. You've got 250K sticky, VW addicted customers who just aren't going anywhere soon. They had to feed two monsters, SOE and LEC, so maybe that makes the difference. But if it just comes down to not enough money coming in, how can it possibly be the case that enough is coming in now?


I believe that every former SOE employee that has commented on the NGE have said the game was in no danger of being canceled when the NGE was inflicted on the players (I even believe Dundee did so on the MMORPG.com forums). The only person who ever made the claim that the NGE was necessary to the future of SWG was the Smed in a post on the OBoards when he posted something to the effect that SWG wasn't a viable business in its pre-NGE state as a Star Wars game because there weren't enough players for a game with the Star Wars name on it. I think that was the same post where he admitted WoW's subscription numbers had an influence on the decision to implement the NGE.

I really wish someone who has interviewed him in the past two years had asked him to reconcile his post with the fact that the subscription numbers are much smaller now than when he made that post.
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Obee
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wildcat wrote:
Obee wrote:
Dundee wrote:


Quote:
My God, how can ANYONE who's income depends COMPLETELY on people NOT hitting "cancel subscription" en mass EVER adopt that attitude?


That is the exact same decision that has been made every time an MMO has been canceled: boot the players that are still playing it out, assign the resources (i.e. employees, mostly) to making something else, which hopefully other people (and more of them) will like.

The only difference at all is in terms of communication with the players. Canceling a game and then shipping a different game later is straightforward, open, and honest.

I mean, that has never pissed you off, has it?



How many games that were making a profit have been canceled to make room for a new game in the hopes of making more money? I would have to think that a company telling its customers 'This game is doing fine, we just think we can make a different game and make even more money with it.' would piss quite a few people off.

Canceling a game that is losing money, and redirecting resources to make a game that has a better chance to do so, would likely piss off a whole lot less people.

Doing either one and not offering refunds to customers who pre-paid for game time would likely result a lawsuits and possible fines.


I quite honestly am shocked that in today's litigious age that SOE wasn't sued over the NGE.

I think such a suit would definitely have a chance of succeeding.


Had a class action suit been filed on behalf of everyone who had pre-paid game time, SOE would have issued refunds. The potential damage such a ruling would do to companies with MMOs will keep them from allowing such a case from going to court.

EA was sued over the state UO was launched in. They settled out of court (they donated around $15K to a tech museum) and nobody has tried to sue another company for a shoddy release. Had EA went to court and lost, the entire MMO industry may have been done in by a decision against them. Outside of WoW and LotRO, I can't think of any other MMOs that have had semi-smooth launches (WoW had a few problems with people logging, mainly due to Blizzard having no clue that so many people were going to buy their game).
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Dvol
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BlackTurtle13 wrote:
Quote:

You guys realize that every MMO i have tried in the last 2 years ther is allways a remark about SWG at least once in the chat window. The remarks varry, but majority is how much the game is missed. Some of these chats got me thinking how the MMO they are in now reminds them in a small part of SWG. Make comparisons of the game they are in vs SWG. If SWG went classic how they would drop the mmo they were in a go play it..How bad the Devs were to them, how bad the gameplay changes became.

3 years since that game was on a live server yet generates a conversation in other Games on a regular basis. Log in type something about SWG an see how many responses you get..90% of its how bad they miss it. If that doesnt scream money i dont know what does.. Bean counters you reading this? Im sure you are. Make a sandbox game with many of the old games features an polish it up....Simple yet we get a rehashed WoWclone allways.SWG couldnt have been the turd SoE made it out too be. i mean why would so many miss a turd? I dont miss the NGE.


Greetings,

I am a long time “lurker” and very rare poster (as in Bigfoot rare). Thank you for the forums here, and the opportunity to make a brief comment.

I happen to agree wholeheartedly with Mr. Dvol's comments above. Looking at what is coming down the pipe for MMORPGs is so disheartening to me and is very frustrating in all the “sameness”. I don't know if is due to my age (37) or just having a lot more experience in gaming overall, but most of the games I have tried fall way short in so many areas to the SWG pre-cu. SWG was my first MMORPG I played and I'm sure there is a touch of “first time” romanticism for any game like this, but it just had so much to offer. Even after all this time, I still just shake my head as to its loss, regardless of how it all went down.

However, I do consider myself very lucky, as I did jump ship very early in the “downfall”. I left just before the CU came about. I read extensively and nothing seemed to me to address the issues that I felt were more important and blaring than what was to be changed. I did try the game for maybe two days shortly after the NGE, and going in with 30 some character options in my memory and having only nine....(sigh/ cry)...”thats all I have to say about that”. Someone really, REALLY, dropped the ball on this one.

I currently play WoW with the occasional jaunts in to CoV when I experience a burnout. It is a good game and has a lot of fun things to offer. But as Mr. Dvol said: mention SWG in a chat, and you will hear many comments by disgruntled former players and what all they miss about the game. I think WoW has brought in a whole bunch of new players to the MMORPG genre. Many of them are kids, but not all, as in my case. I wonder if SWG would have stayed the course how many of them would have migrated over to what could/ should have been?

...anyway...back to the shadows. Thank you for your time.


Yep im that young too Rolling Eyes I used to lurk too alot. I rarely posted much of anything before the CU hit. When it did i became vocal an still remain that way. I also like you spent over a year in COV, about 3 months in WoW, now in Eve..Still none have that i have to log in when i can feel to it.. Most of what you wrote is a mirror image of me...Odd but true.

Really im curious to Dundee's response to this. Why wouldnt that known fact other games daily talk about old SWG. Why cant that influence SoE or any game developer to produce such a game. Are they that greedy(insert stupid,lazy, or dumb if it fits better for you)? They must have 5 million koreans to mean their game is a success now? I mean WoW has alot of great qualities, none that intrest me at all. Blizz has allways had a huge korean fan base..Hence why the latest expansion sold less than 2 mill here an over 5 mill there..

I for one dont like the whole choose one class an feel forced too play their game, loot level type games. I prefer too play games as i see fit, with lots of player choices. I was a solo FPS an RPG gamer prior to my beta invite to SWG..Even with all the bad bugs, shody polish i still bought the game at launch( an 3 other accounts 3 months later ). I was looking for that kinda game an didnt know it. I didnt beleive in paying for a game each month. I thought that was stupid as hell...Um remember the 4 accounts part i mentioned earlier? Smile

Im not saying any new MMO has to be another Star Wars title...Just as long as it copies swg an not WoW. We have enough WoWitis as it is. Im waiting too see how the market changes an what titles are offered. So far 2008 looks just like 2007 for me no new MMO that tries to be better than WoW..I can support one trying to improve an add depth to the game..Not make it easy to be just like everyone else...
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wildcat
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I want a MMO that doesn't limit me to anything but my potential.

Pre-CU did that.

EVE does that.

Which is why I play EVE.

NGE is a dead letter.

There should be alpha players. Not Alpha classes, but those who do the time and learn the game definitely should always have the advantage. Don't bother to learn? Cry more noob.
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Wolfmann
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really only have one question..

The Imperial cap.
What was so difficult about it that made it take 1.5 years to even make it wearable? (Not mentioning that it also was built with palette changes in mind for both hair and cloth).

1.5 years before it was "fixed", most "modders" ran around wearing it with the color of their choice on both hair and cap, and even made it so that it didn't "work" on wookiees and females or Rodian..

I bet Dun..Freeman wasn't the one doing the ductape fix on it, but surely he, eh you musta known about it Razz


Other than that, from what I've read here, I can say that a game where you use your developing skills on might be one I check out (You have shown skills as a developer, developing within the games "vision"), but one where you're in management position, I would avoid like the plague.

Forgiven? Maybe some. Forgotten? Weeeell, as the goat example, you will have many years as a developer ahead of you where you will keep having to prove yourself, that you're not the "goat guy" Wink
Especially to veteran players in the genre.
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Dundee
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

prime8 wrote:
Dundee
Not dishonest , maybe trying to massage some egos here to get on side , why ? I dont know , do you have a game coming out soonish , oh i'm such a cynic , if your really being honest great , but in my experience the leopard never changes its spots .

cheers


Oh, I suspect if any of you liked it but hated me anyway, your reaction to it would be, "Yay! Those other guys at Spacetime didn't let him screw it up. Now let's all make them promise he's not in charge of live... ever."

Or if you didn't like it, "Ha! Figures. He sucks and his new game sucks, too."

I mean, maybe I'm completely wrong about that ... and if so, I don't mean this as a challenge, but I haven't ever thought any future release with my name buried in the credits would be judged by anything other than its own merits.

If my name were on the box, then sure... but buried in a list of names (and behind a number of designers that maybe you do like)?

Again - maybe you're thinking, THAT'S RIGHT! - but I certainly wasn't thinking that was the case.

As for it coming out any time soon... well, maybe within a couple of years before last week, if you consider that "soon", and now there's just no telling if it'll be finished at all.

The timing of this visit had nothing to do with that, but rather with my name popping up on the internet. And links to my blog are like rubbing a genie's lamp.

I don't think those particular spots ever were mine.

This isn't meant as a declaration of some fantastic transmogrification on my part that I'm begging you to take my word as having happened.

I am a fairly conscientious person. Misbehavior is not the norm for me.

Still, yeh, I always feel the same way when someone tells me they agree with my negative judgment of something they've done. Like, Do they really agree, or are they just saying that so I'll stop thinking of them as the person who does that thing?

Or if not always, at least if I don't know them well enough to know better (and if knowing them well enough means knowing better).

So, ok, totally understandable...
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Dundee
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obee wrote:
How many games that were making a profit have been canceled to make room for a new game in the hopes of making more money?


Just about all of them that have ever been canceled, and almost none of them, depending on how you look at it, and who you are.

Seriously.

Most that have been canceled would never have earned back the money it cost to make them, and so in that sense were never profitable and never would have been.

But...

It's easy to run a game without losing money every month. You scale down live teams and hardware and of course bandwidth and customer service, etc. scale themselves down.

But a jazillionaire doesn't see ten employees bringing him $100 a month (after their salaries and benefits) as anything but a waste of ten employees' time. Maybe especially if they are working on something that cost him $30 million dollars to make.

Naturally, the employees don't see it that way at all - that game is buying their homes and sending their kids to college...

Any one wanting to tell you that running the game you love doesn't cost them anything, keeps a number of people employed, etc. won't have the authority to tell you that.

The guy making more or less nothing from the game is the one that'll make the call to shut it down, imply it's costing money to run. Even if stating it just isn't profitable enough - is failing to point-out that it's as profitable to the people working on it as anything else they could be doing (to them)...

But then too, in the sense that if you spend $30 million to make something that is returning $100 a month or so (profit, after paying salaries, etc. for a gang of folk), it's not really a lie to say that it isn't profitable.

Quote:
I would have to think that a company telling its customers 'This game is doing fine, we just think we can make a different game and make even more money with it.' would piss quite a few people off.


Well, they never say its doing fine though, do they? They say it's "just not financially feasible" and "this was a difficult business decision to make" and so on.

That doesn't mean they were losing money on it.

Quote:
Doing either one and not offering refunds to customers who pre-paid for game time would likely result a lawsuits and possible fines.


Oh yeah, no question.

Though in my experience, for most players it's not about the money.
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Dundee
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylrathin wrote:
If you happen to still be reading, I do have a question. You mentioned you hated the "combat revamp". Are you referring to the CU that was implemented in April/May 2005? Or the CURB that was discussed with players for which GreenMarine drew up an unofficial design doc online but was never implemented?


The one that was actually implemented.

I'll confess to bias, though. I thought that much less could have been done much sooner by way of addressing the issues with combat and the ancillary systems.

For the time it took to design (not even implement, just design), it'd have had to have been one heck of a mystical experience to play with in order for me to have liked it.
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Dundee
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wolfmann wrote:
I really only have one question..

The Imperial cap.
What was so difficult about it that made it take 1.5 years to even make it wearable? (Not mentioning that it also was built with palette changes in mind for both hair and cloth).


The "right way" to implement it was everyone's first choice, but hats are expensive as heck to make in a game with so many strangely-shaped heads.

Quote:
1.5 years before it was "fixed"


I guess that's how long it took for the realization to sink-in that there'd never be so many artists with so little to do that making another hat (with no critical deadline in particular) would take priority over anything else they might be doing (such as creating assets for an expansion that had better not slip even one day).

Don't you just love that kind of optimism?

Quote:
I bet Dun..Freeman wasn't the one doing the ductape fix on it, but surely he, eh you musta known about it Razz


I wasn't much for setting-up items, and especially not if they were crafted... I knew about it, and heard it was finally added to the game, but that was about it.

Playing a Wookiee at the time, news of hats didn't interest me much.

My focus was generally on AI behaviors, the pet system for example, and for one expansion I felt like all I ever did was spell-check NPC dialog and fix any scripting-logic puzzle that other designers couldn't crack.
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Dundee
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obee wrote:
I believe that every former SOE employee that has commented on the NGE have said the game was in no danger of being canceled when the NGE was inflicted on the players (I even believe Dundee did so on the MMORPG.com forums). The only person who ever made the claim that the NGE was necessary to the future of SWG was the Smed in a post on the OBoards when he posted something to the effect that SWG wasn't a viable business in its pre-NGE state as a Star Wars game because there weren't enough players for a game with the Star Wars name on it. I think that was the same post where he admitted WoW's subscription numbers had an influence on the decision to implement the NGE.

I really wish someone who has interviewed him in the past two years had asked him to reconcile his post with the fact that the subscription numbers are much smaller now than when he made that post.


I have no inside knowledge on this, but as I recall as having been stated publicly, I think there was a projection of where the population would be at some near-future date, and that was a place at which the contract between SOE and LEC declared "game over!"

Contracts can be renegotiated, of course... but then that's the sort of thing no one would want to renegotiate unless there were some potential for mad-cash tied to the new agreement. Like, we'll go halfsies on this lotto ticket, but only if you agree to continue putting up with my shit even if it doesn't win.

I don't know that's what happened, but it wouldn't surprise me.

SWG's team is much, much, much, much, much smaller than it was before, with fewer "seasoned veterans" (which cost more to feed their special diet of orphan blood) than ever.

I think they probably just weren't allowed to run another SW game, 'cause that license is worth more than all the oil in Iraq.
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prime8
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dundee
Yes in all fairness a game should be judged on its own merits , but when people are involved with a game that have been known to "Misbehave" then it's difficult not to have second thoughts , thus forgiven but not forgotten .
As to your intentions for comming here at this time I can only take your word for it .

Like I said earlier knowing what you CAN NOT/SHOULD NOT do is more important than knowing what you can do , here's a little piece of advice for you , for free , it works a treat when dealing with , well just about everybody , "treat people like you would like them to treat you" , I'm sure had you had this in mind when you were at SOE you would never have been involved with what the DEVS/SOE/ect did to it's players .

cheers
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PHP-Nuke Copyright © 2005 by Francisco Burzi. This is free software, and you may redistribute it under the GPL. PHP-Nuke comes with absolutely no warranty, for details, see the license.