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wildcat
Admin Cabal
Joined: Dec 23, 2007
Posts: 166
Location: Huntington, WV
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kefkah
Novice Brawler
Joined: Dec 24, 2007
Posts: 86
Location: In your thread
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 Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:58 am Post subject: |
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Sounds like another Sony acquisition is due to be announced...
_________________
Calling all Rangers!
http://www.swgrangers.com |
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Dundee
Just off the shuttle
Joined: Jan 13, 2008
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:39 pm Post subject: Re: Freeman's MMO canned by NC Soft |
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| wildcat wrote: | http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=16916
Jeff "Father of the NGE" Freeman is now out of the industry. |
I'm not out just yet - not even out of Spacetime, as it happens.
Even if I were one of those who were "let-go" (hate that phrase), I wouldn't be out of the industry.
I probably won't be until I retire, or die. I had several recruiters contact me the same day that we got the news NCsoft had canceled, for example...
Lord knows I don't have any sort of talents, skills, or abilities that I could use to feed myself outside of the game industry - so this is what I'm going to do 'til I'm not working at all any more.
Really, career-wise, I'm in fine shape.
I know you don't want to hear that, and I'm not saying it to rub your nose in it, or anything like that... it's just the way it is. No point throwing a party every time I leave a place just to throw a wake when I turn-up some place else.
Unless I win the lotto, I'm going to turn-up some place else. Even massive mistakes don't blackball designers from the industry, unless they show-up to every interview thereafter in denial, pointing a finger of blame in every direction but toward themselves.
So that's all bad news for anyone wishing there were a bar exam for game designers, and that I were dis'd from it.
Sorry.
On a brighter note: I am avoiding management-level responsibilities, so as not to find myself in over my head.
You might take that as recognition on my part, that at points in my past I have found myself operating at a level beyond my comfort zone - that is, the point at which I feel confident in my own competency.
Not "enough" perhaps, to make you happy... but maybe it's at least one or two things on the list of wishes, if there's a list and not just the single hope for my becoming a hobo.
I suspect, most of you here don't want me to do anything, at any level... and I'd gladly satisfy that wish if I could.
In the meantime, I hope that my not doing anything stupid at a high level will suffice.
Please don't celebrate or wish for bad things to happen to my coworkers just so bad things will happen to me. That's so mean.
I'm sure some bad things will happen to me that don't hurt other people even more. Enjoy those.
_________________
--Jeff Freeman
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prime8
Just off the shuttle
Joined: Dec 24, 2007
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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Dundee
I think knowing what you can not do is more important than knowing what you can do .
cheers |
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Owen-Lars
Novice Brawler
Joined: Dec 30, 2007
Posts: 76
Location: Leeds, England
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| Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:25 am Post subject: Re: Freeman's MMO canned by NC Soft |
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| Dundee wrote: |
On a brighter note: I am avoiding management-level responsibilities, so as not to find myself in over my head.
You might take that as recognition on my part, that at points in my past I have found myself operating at a level beyond my comfort zone - that is, the point at which I feel confident in my own competency. |
That in itself is good news to me. Im not trying to be mean or anything, for instance i wouldnt want anything bad to happen to you or your colleagues but i think that in terms of management performance you just aren't at that most capable level yet. Sorry if this sounds harsh but im speaking very critically here.
Listening to your current customers and finding out what their gripes are and addressing them is a much safer and responsible way of developing your product, whatever the market.
MMO players are not this massively segregated bunch that many seem to believe. We are infact very similar in what we want out of an mmo. There are of course those that want freedom and those that want a linear experience but there is a massive market for each. We are an intelligent group able to read between the lines but most important of all we are very highly networked to other mmo gamers.
If we see changes that we believe are great and what we want then by this networking we bring in extra players. Its by simple word of mouth. This has worked for WoW incredibly well simply because they made a game that addressed a lot of fan issues, picked their market and went with it addressing those issues. By simple word of mouth players and players friends are pulled into the game with the gamers making the sales pitch.
With SWG you had an amazing concept but you didnt listen to what the players wanted. You changed your design against those wishes, you focused on areas of the game that were not at the front of the player's wish lists and instead of for instance fixing existing professions, bugs and core elements such as the GCW you focused on adding and changing instead of improving your core product.
The market for the classic SWG was there, for sure. It just needed improving as a core game addressing those issues that players brought up then add as we go. Instead you changed the game and frustrated your existing playerbase. I believe that if you had the players on your side then then SWG would be popular right now. But due to the fact you essentially turned your back on the existing players, by sheer might and word of mouth they turned SWG into the 'Lepper' of the mmo world. Doomed to failure because of the negative opinions of the consumer market. And it is this that i believe truly highlighted a lack of managerial ability on your part (not just on your part however).
I dont pretend to have the experience in the MMO market needed for a managerial position at a developer, however i am an experienced business management individual both in schooling and work experience. I know what routes a company has available to them and the decisions that must be made. I understand the risks and repercussions of decision and in that regard i believe that SWG to be a classic example of poor and costly management decisions that have not only destroyed a product but also the reputation of the company in charge of its development.
I wish you well but i hope lessons can be learned from the decisions made during SWGs development. |
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wildcat
Admin Cabal
Joined: Dec 23, 2007
Posts: 166
Location: Huntington, WV
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| Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:15 am Post subject: |
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It sucks to lose a job. I've lost one myself when the company I worked for failed. But I had a new one within days. Why?
Because I'm competent. In fact, I'm damn good at what I do, in this small area with limited IT talent, I'm known as one of the best.
Perhaps you should pursue another calling? Maybe game design is not for you? I'm a reasonably intelligent person, but I'd suck at rocket science, brain surgery, or yes, game design too.
Seriously, how could you for one second even considered the NGE a good idea? That we'd LIKE losing 2/3rds of the content and professions? That we'd LIKE a broken pseudo FPS combat system that was like watching Benny Hill on speed? That we'd LIKE having our accomplishments ripped from us (such as Jedi)?
Come on. Any reasonable person who gave that even 2 seconds of thought could have predicted the NGE would come out exactly as it HAS HAVE. We were all telling you all that this was going to happen.
No, you knew perfectly well we'd hate it. It wasn't us who you wanted anyway. You guys took the calculated risk that we'd leave QUIETLY and be replaced by the simpler "target audience" crowd.
Which also was a very ill-reasoned move. Uh, we are gamers, but we are first and foremost STAR WARS fans... Remember what the Star Wars fans did when we hated Jar Jar Binks? Remember the uproar over the edit in the Han Solo/Greedo scene?
We made GEORGE LUCAS back down... You guys are pikers compared to him.
All the evidence in the world was there for you guys that would have exactly predicted your current predicament: Loss of most of the player base and ALL of you having tainted reputations. But you chose to ignore it.
Had you walked out of there the day "The man" gave you the NGE to work on, you'd be a hero right now. You'd have people here (myself included) eagerly following what you were doing (if you didn't run off to make silly web browser games). You'd have had your reputation and integrity. Considering how SOE went down the shitter in 2005, it's not as if your job there was something to bet your family on anyway. Situations like that don't build character, they reveal it.
What you guys stole from us, and I use that word intentionally, was not a game, it was a pastime. A virtual world in which you could vicariously live in the Star Wars universe. Most elements of which the CU damaged then the NGE destroyed.
It is irrelevant whether the NGE was a good idea or not. Doing something like that to a 3 year old mature game was immoral. It was wrong. It's really a GOOD thing that the NGE failed miserably, had it succeeded, the MMO player would have been shafted for all time. Us losing our game has probably saved everyone else's
But we lost our game.
Which is why the outrage was so big and continues today. We aren't going to get our game back. We accept this. That is the consequence we face. But as you have found out, you guys also are paying a price as well.
I still cannot fathom what, besides heavy consumption of hallucinogenic narcotics could have made any of you think that after the flack you got for the CU, that going even MORE extreme in that direction with the NGE was even an idea to consider, much less plan and implement seriously?
I mean, what the hell? Was there some gun to your head or something? Was the CIA involved? Seriously. There just isn't any rational explanation other than mass insanity in your building to account for it. |
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Dvol
Just off the shuttle
Joined: Dec 29, 2007
Posts: 37
Location: Go Vols!!!
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| Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:15 am Post subject: Re: Freeman's MMO canned by NC Soft |
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| Dundee wrote: | | wildcat wrote: | http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=16916
Jeff "Father of the NGE" Freeman is now out of the industry. |
I'm not out just yet - not even out of Spacetime, as it happens.
Even if I were one of those who were "let-go" (hate that phrase), I wouldn't be out of the industry.
I probably won't be until I retire, or die. I had several recruiters contact me the same day that we got the news NCsoft had canceled, for example...
Lord knows I don't have any sort of talents, skills, or abilities that I could use to feed myself outside of the game industry - so this is what I'm going to do 'til I'm not working at all any more.
Really, career-wise, I'm in fine shape.
I know you don't want to hear that, and I'm not saying it to rub your nose in it, or anything like that... it's just the way it is. No point throwing a party every time I leave a place just to throw a wake when I turn-up some place else.
Unless I win the lotto, I'm going to turn-up some place else. Even massive mistakes don't blackball designers from the industry, unless they show-up to every interview thereafter in denial, pointing a finger of blame in every direction but toward themselves.
So that's all bad news for anyone wishing there were a bar exam for game designers, and that I were dis'd from it.
Sorry.
On a brighter note: I am avoiding management-level responsibilities, so as not to find myself in over my head.
You might take that as recognition on my part, that at points in my past I have found myself operating at a level beyond my comfort zone - that is, the point at which I feel confident in my own competency.
Not "enough" perhaps, to make you happy... but maybe it's at least one or two things on the list of wishes, if there's a list and not just the single hope for my becoming a hobo.
I suspect, most of you here don't want me to do anything, at any level... and I'd gladly satisfy that wish if I could.
In the meantime, I hope that my not doing anything stupid at a high level will suffice.
Please don't celebrate or wish for bad things to happen to my coworkers just so bad things will happen to me. That's so mean.
I'm sure some bad things will happen to me that don't hurt other people even more. Enjoy those. |
Hey Dundee glad you came over, and welcome. I for one dont hate you or wish ill on you or any co workers. All I did get screwed over an lost a game i loved big woop. I post E-words about how dumb you guys were..Notice i used the past tense "were". I dont like how things were handled, nore how we as paying customers were treated. Not much i can do too change the past.
I can say that i respect you an your opinions, an quite enjoy when you do post. Honestly you fooked up one game.. I dont think thats grounds for hating you( which i personally dont) or wishing you ill..My opinion may not be popular here or anywere, but i dont waste energy on hate. I Disliked what you did in the past. You have said somethings since that made me respect you more than i once did. Honestly all you did too me was save me tons of money. So i dont blame you much anymore. Waste of time an energy. I know not everyone will agree with me but i dont really care, just how i stand on the past issues.
Yeah in the past ive bashed you for being stupid at game design changes in one game. So for me you messed up once an will have too earn my gaming dollars back. Life is way too short too waste energy on hate. So we are clear I disliked how you handled things one game, doesnt mean squat to me about your future. I do think you an other x-swg devs have alot of Pr an trust to earn back. Just cause you must earn it back dont mean i dislike you or hate you. I understand you were told too do something an did it. Hell i work for the "Man" too 
If you do post again i would like to know some things. Was it me or does your on hold game mimic the old SWG? Form what ive read it sounds alot like the old game jsut witout the SW IP( awesome if its true). Also whats its future now? Id like too know what the plans were for gameplay an combat? If it was gonna be a improved version of SWG using a new name im one highly intrested old poot.
This all Just means your gonna have too work harder too prove everyone wrong. Work harder too win over the gamers you an the NGE ran off. So for me you have a semi clean slate stained with a shaky past. You must prove that you have learned your lesson an treat customers better than in the past. Im jaded now towards all MMO's thanks in part to you an other NGE devs. I wont an havent bought but one MMO since the NGE( EvE btw).
All im asking is that you either put up or shut up. Promises an e-words dont mean a thing to me at all( see my sig). Actions speak much louder for me. Till then thanks for again earning my respect. Not all of us are hate motivated just a tad pissed at the gaming companies an their stupidity.
Im Just a pissed off vocal gamer, thats tired of rehashed WoW clones an being treated like shit when i pay for a game. I dislike being lied too by companies. So now i am a jaded vocal gamer who voices my gaming experiences regularly, good or bad. In the end im the customer you want to win back. I can pay for many accounts an games.
E-net makes screwing up a real Bitch dont it? I just put myself in your shoes. I would want you too prove your past wrong. If i based everything on one mess up i wouldnt be playing many games at all. There isnt one company out there that hasnt messed up. Your no different except you have the nuts too post they dont. That is what earned my respect. We all are human an make mistakes..Too bad this one mess up that will haunt you till you prove me right or wrong..
_________________
E-Feelings nothing more than hurt E-feelings.....E-tissues optional. |
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Dundee
Just off the shuttle
Joined: Jan 13, 2008
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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| wildcat wrote: | It sucks to lose a job. I've lost one myself when the company I worked for failed. But I had a new one within days. Why?
Because I'm competent. In fact, I'm damn good at what I do, in this small area with limited IT talent, I'm known as one of the best.
Perhaps you should pursue another calling? Maybe game design is not for you? I'm a reasonably intelligent person, but I'd suck at rocket science, brain surgery, or yes, game design too. |
Oh, I am good at what I do. Believe it or not, other people in the game industry also consider me to be good at what I do, and most often even better than I consider myself to be.
But other people tend to look at everything I've done in my entire career, and base their assessment of me on that.
So that's why Raph, for example, has said he considers me to be a good designer that he'd work with again, despite his opinion of the NGE being the same as yours.
| Quote: | | No, you knew perfectly well we'd hate it. It wasn't us who you wanted anyway. You guys took the calculated risk that we'd leave QUIETLY and be replaced by the simpler "target audience" crowd. |
I am sincerely ashamed of that.
I wish at the very least we'd have been open and honest. Like, for example, told you, "Hey, you will probably hate this, but here's what it is."
Automatically canceling all existing account billing, then giving them all a free month of NGE, would have sent the message that the old game was going, the new game was coming, and that pissing on you and telling you it was raining not only wouldn't fool you, but would insult you, too.
None of that messaging was my call. The only reason I'm ashamed of it, personally, is because I at least should have realized it was a bad thing to do, even if how I felt about marketing, pr, and community management never made a difference anyway.
| Quote: | | We made GEORGE LUCAS back down... You guys are pikers compared to him. |
Oh, I don't feel it was a bad thing to do just because it didn't work out entirely as planned, but genuinely because it was a bad thing to do, regardless.
Would I have made that realization if the wildest hopes and dreams and wishes and such had been realized?
Maybe, but not for a very long time, I bet.
| Quote: | | All the evidence in the world was there for you guys that would have exactly predicted your current predicament: Loss of most of the player base and ALL of you having tainted reputations. But you chose to ignore it. |
Losing the player base never bothered me. It's their company, and if they wanted to rolls the dice and take the chances, then I figure that's their business.
I mean, games have shut down, too - purely for business financial reasons, taking away the game that the people playing it were enjoying, and it sucks for them, but I still don't begrudge the decision.
For me, the shame of it's purely, solely, that one thing up there. That's what I did wrong...
There are very few devs as "accessible" as I am, and so really very few with any sort of public facing reputation to get tainted.
Among that small handful of folk, their reputations within the industry are far more important to them than their "public rep".
So it's most likely I'm the only one particularly bothered by having a tainted reputation, and nope... didn't predict it. Should have. Duh.
Also, shouldn't have had to predict it, but instead just cared anyway.
| Quote: | | Had you walked out of there the day "The man" gave you the NGE to work on, you'd be a hero right now. |
I know. But I didn't.
I'd been on expansions since about launch, didn't like the combat revamp, or for that matter, a few other changes that had taken place. I didn't hesitate to obliterate it all, given the chance.
So I won't pretend "given the chance" was really "given the task", and I was just doing my job, yada yada.
I even find "it wouldn't have mattered" a lame defense.
I might not, had I thought it all through and through, even if I just shed a tear for the players, and went on to do the same things for the same results.
I had a lot of loyalty for Cao, and knew he needed me.
But at least then I could say, "I knew it would hurt, but what I knew didn't matter. Had I left, it only would have made the implementation worse."
That's a lot better than, "I would have known it would hurt, had I cared enough to think about it. Since you've brought it up... hmm... wouldn't have mattered."
| Quote: | | You'd have had your reputation and integrity. |
If I'd had integrity, I wouldn't care if you knew it or not.
| Quote: | | Situations like that don't build character, they reveal it. |
Of course. To believe otherwise is to credit those who behave the worst with the best character, and vice versa. That's just ridiculous.
| Quote: | | Which is why the outrage was so big and continues today. We aren't going to get our game back. We accept this. That is the consequence we face. But as you have found out, you guys also are paying a price as well. |
As I said, I don't think a company is wicked for choosing to shut-down a game, and even if I did, the decision is so far above me that I couldn't feel personally responsible for it anyway.
What I'm ashamed of on a personal level is of just not giving a shit about the players.
Even when what I thought wasn't important... not caring revealed my character to me to be pretty lacking.
| Quote: | | I mean, what the hell? Was there some gun to your head or something? Was the CIA involved? Seriously. There just isn't any rational explanation other than mass insanity in your building to account for it. |
An almost complete change in upper management at the studio-director level resulted in a few of us who had made the SWG that launched, had no input on the changes since then, suddenly empowered (ordered!) to change the game it had become.
Since we didn't like that game, and director-level management change was a very strong exec-level, "We do not either," we enthusiastically tackled the challenge of remaking it.
"We" few. Most of the designers were not enthusiastic about it.
And when taken completely off the leash altogether, with almost no boundary to how radical we could be... yeah, it was nuts. The only options off the table were 1) Doing nothing, and 2) pre-CU or 3) another combat-revamp.
'Cause they wanted something done, pre-CU had been tried already, and a combat-revamp had as well.
I was "team leading" a team of mostly me, and sometimes me and one other guy for most of the NGE's implementation: on the live team.
At times I was the only designer assigned to live, everyone else either on an expansion to the game, or the NGE.
It makes being labeled "father of the nge" pretty funny to me. I tackled quick-fixes on the live game throughout most of it.
To be clear: I never sought to cause players angst and drama. When I say I never thought about you, I mean I really just didn't think about you.
That was, I know, horrifically unprofessional anyway. I just don't want it to seem even worse than that.
I was operating under the assumption that you would leave soon regardless.
As directed to, of course.
I'm sorry to say gleefully doing so anyway, though. Might even have done it for free.
I very much disliked the combat revamp.
That's no excuse, though.
This is why, I have decided, even the patently ridiculous accusations still manage to bother me - when otherwise I am an old-school, thick-skinned, online veteran kind of flame-retardant sort of guy.
I did you wrong.
And I didn't need to be a hero. I should have just cared, for starters.
If I'd done that then I'd feel no guilt, regardless how it all went down. If you called me out for not being a superhero, I'd tell you I think you're a loon.
But instead, when you rant how I let you down, all I can think is that I did.
_________________
--Jeff Freeman
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Owen-Lars
Novice Brawler
Joined: Dec 30, 2007
Posts: 76
Location: Leeds, England
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| Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for giving us some insight into how things went down. All the researching and delving in the world doesnt reveal all the facts so its really cool to hear what went down from the horses mouth (thats not an insult by the way) so to speak.
Its great that you've managed to evaluate what went down and are honest and willing to talk about not only the companies failings but yours aswel. So for that. thanks.
If all could be reversed and you had the chance to do it again, would you do things different? Would you care for the players? But more importantly, would this of made a difference? and would we see the NGE again or perhaps in some other form? |
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wildcat
Admin Cabal
Joined: Dec 23, 2007
Posts: 166
Location: Huntington, WV
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:04 am Post subject: |
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Jeff, I have to say I find your posts here amazing. Thanks for writing what you did. I think you truly do realize what you did was wrong, and why.
And I wish Smedley, Cao, and the others would do the same and do so publicly, because then I'd have something to forgive them for. I wonder if they understand that the NGE is why their company is spiraling down the toilet, that it's why they are LOSING subscribers overall even as the industry overall grows, and that they are and will ALWAYS be known as the company that "fucked over the SWG players"?
You at least have asked, and shown reason to give it, so I can give you my forgiveness.
I wonder what the reaction was like inside that building, in November/December 2005 when they saw 100,000 people leave in a VERY short amount of time and saw NO ONE coming in to replace them, despite spending on advertising? I remember the crazy 2 weeks where you literally couldn't cancel your account because the servers that handled that kept overloading and crashing...
We do know what it was, sorta, from the GarVa rant on the Jedi forum, and Chris's "Cao" post basically flaming us, blaming us (not the shitty NGE) for their bad reputation and failings.
Their reaction must have been like the ending of every Scooby Doo cartoon... "If not for those meddling vets".
HOW could they not see that you can't just flagrantly dump 200,000 "ex girlfriends" and not get the reaction that they did?
Even if there were people who might have been interested in the NGE game, once it (and SOE) got a worse reputation than toxic radioactive waste, clearly they were scared off by the publicity and our reactions...
It truly is ironic, and it must have pissed them off in Austin/San Diego greatly when at the end of the day, all they got for the NGE was a greatly diminished (and still dwindling) player base made up almost totally of Pre-NGE veterans and not enough new players to matter and a reputation on par with serial killers...
About all they have left these days, if I am to believe the people who sometimes send me PM's, are about 25-30K subs. All they have left, literally, is the baseline number of people who will play a Star Wars game, ANY Star Wars game, no matter how bad it sucks.
And it still does suck. I actually logged in Friday on about the 5th "please come back" free trial I've been offered in the last year. After having to spend AN HOUR revamping the UI so that I could even walk, much less fight, all the glaring issues with the NGE are still there. The combat system is still silly and stupid, mobs shoot through anything, laser bolts act like guided missiles, and 5 people in one place fighting anything brings the server to it's knees.
And it's still missing 23 professions and still gives away Jedi like a cheap politician's promise.
After 45 minutes of that (and getting white hot angry again) I logged out, logged back into EVE, and was much much happier. BTW, I bet the people happiest with the NGE is CCP... If you go look at MMOGDATA.VOIG.COM you will note that they took their biggest jump after 11/05... And in game I can tell you that a HUGE proportion of the players there are ex SWG.
That is the game that should have been copied, that would have brought the Star Wars universe to life. EVE with a Pre-CU like ground game would have been the ULTIMATE MMO...
Last edited by wildcat on Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
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kefkah
Novice Brawler
Joined: Dec 24, 2007
Posts: 86
Location: In your thread
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:48 am Post subject: |
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Wow. Okay. Jeff, Your post is something I didn't expect. And it was much appreciated. Both because of its honesty and for the courage it would take to walk into a seeming lion's den.
I wish you the best of luck in your future endeavors. May not mean much but as an mmo player - its the best I can do until you are part of a game whose gameplay, concepts and storyline is the solution to our homelessnes. Should all those stars line up - then there is more than we can all do.
_________________
Calling all Rangers!
http://www.swgrangers.com
Last edited by kefkah on Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:55 am; edited 1 time in total |
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AfroPuff
Just off the shuttle
Joined: Dec 28, 2007
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:20 am Post subject: |
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Despite my better instincts, and despite having long since stopped playing, or keeping up with the day to day changes, I can't stop paying attention to the NGE debate.
I still like hanging out with veterans and other gawkers. I have these burning twin questions of:
"What the hell actuallly happened in that studio to cause such a cluster-fuck call?"
and
"How in the hell could they not see this big ass, neon-flashing New Coke disaster coming down on them?"
That second question will probably never be answered. But I've said in the past that I'd pay a pretty penny for answers to those questions. I think I've gotten pretty much the biggest gift I could hope to receive from Jeff et al. at this point, and it's not Pre-CU. I now know, with all the fidelity I can ever reasonably hope for, what went down with SWG. Thanks for that.
The only thing I can do at this point is keep my antenna up, stay watchful and hope this kind of perfect storm doesn't form again with any project I happen to give a crap about. If it does, I'm smart enough - thanks to this experience - to keep things at an arms length, keep from getting attached, and know where the door is. My MMO cherry only needs to be popped once.
I'm not looking for Jeff to be out of work. Even Torres, who draws a lot of our nerd hate, was involved with the original KoTOR. Who am I to say he's really the fuck up he appeared in public to be? I've wished them all the best in the past, and I'll do it again here. Good luck Jeff. I'm all out of nerd rage, and have been for some time.
I'm just nosy. |
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Dvol
Just off the shuttle
Joined: Dec 29, 2007
Posts: 37
Location: Go Vols!!!
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:25 am Post subject: |
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| Dundee wrote: |
But other people tend to look at everything I've done in my entire career, and base their assessment of me on that.
So that's why Raph, for example, has said he considers me to be a good designer that he'd work with again, despite his opinion of the NGE being the same as yours.
I am sincerely ashamed of that.. |
This is one of the main reasons why i like yah. Your brutal honesty. What your doing here earns more than just respect. I would be more inclined too play a game made by you now. Being honest an up front no matter what says alot to me about you. When you get time i would mind knowing more about your project. My main concern is the system itself,how things are looking for publisher,an will it have 250 skill points too spend???( this be important to me)
Anyways thanks for explaining things. It helps too understand why things went to turdville IMO. It helps us realize why things went too shit. I can see why Raph speaks highly of you. You have tons of integrety an i can tell you do truely care. Too me that means alot. Ive read your responses about 5 times allready lol. Its eye opening an trurely means alot to me. Made me understand things from your side, an viewing you in a new better light. This helps you as well with pissed off former players like me more than you will realize. I would enjoy more input an post from you in the future.Im with Afropuff my nerd rage petered out long ago. I do have high intrest in your project tho..Sounded familiar an would love too know more. This of course when you can if you can...
Secondary optional questions 
Im curious Dundee did you expect the worst when you posted?
Did we shock you in our responses?
See how honesty an being straight up no matter what helps?
Are you the only one out there in Dev land with a freaking clue on how being involved in your community is beneficial?
_________________
E-Feelings nothing more than hurt E-feelings.....E-tissues optional. |
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suske
Novice Brawler
Joined: Dec 24, 2007
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:17 am Post subject: Re: Freeman's MMO canned by NC Soft |
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| Dundee wrote: | | wildcat wrote: | http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=16916
Jeff "Father of the NGE" Freeman is now out of the industry. |
I'm not out just yet - not even out of Spacetime, as it happens.
Even if I were one of those who were "let-go" (hate that phrase), I wouldn't be out of the industry.
I probably won't be until I retire, or die. I had several recruiters contact me the same day that we got the news NCsoft had canceled, for example...
Lord knows I don't have any sort of talents, skills, or abilities that I could use to feed myself outside of the game industry - so this is what I'm going to do 'til I'm not working at all any more.
Really, career-wise, I'm in fine shape.
I know you don't want to hear that, and I'm not saying it to rub your nose in it, or anything like that... it's just the way it is. No point throwing a party every time I leave a place just to throw a wake when I turn-up some place else.
Unless I win the lotto, I'm going to turn-up some place else. Even massive mistakes don't blackball designers from the industry, unless they show-up to every interview thereafter in denial, pointing a finger of blame in every direction but toward themselves.
So that's all bad news for anyone wishing there were a bar exam for game designers, and that I were dis'd from it.
Sorry.
On a brighter note: I am avoiding management-level responsibilities, so as not to find myself in over my head.
You might take that as recognition on my part, that at points in my past I have found myself operating at a level beyond my comfort zone - that is, the point at which I feel confident in my own competency.
Not "enough" perhaps, to make you happy... but maybe it's at least one or two things on the list of wishes, if there's a list and not just the single hope for my becoming a hobo.
I suspect, most of you here don't want me to do anything, at any level... and I'd gladly satisfy that wish if I could.
In the meantime, I hope that my not doing anything stupid at a high level will suffice.
Please don't celebrate or wish for bad things to happen to my coworkers just so bad things will happen to me. That's so mean.
I'm sure some bad things will happen to me that don't hurt other people even more. Enjoy those. |
i personally don't really think you are singlehandedly responsible for the nge. perhaps one day you will be able to tell us the whole story behind that colossal fuckup and how you got fingered to
be the meatshield. in any case as a employee your company should have came to your defense....after all they saw and approved the idea. |
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wildcat
Admin Cabal
Joined: Dec 23, 2007
Posts: 166
Location: Huntington, WV
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:01 am Post subject: |
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| AfroPuff wrote: | Despite my better instincts, and despite having long since stopped playing, or keeping up with the day to day changes, I can't stop paying attention to the NGE debate.
I still like hanging out with veterans and other gawkers. I have these burning twin questions of:
"What the hell actuallly happened in that studio to cause such a cluster-fuck call?"
and
"How in the hell could they not see this big ass, neon-flashing New Coke disaster coming down on them?"
That second question will probably never be answered. But I've said in the past that I'd pay a pretty penny for answers to those questions. I think I've gotten pretty much the biggest gift I could hope to receive from Jeff et al. at this point, and it's not Pre-CU. I now know, with all the fidelity I can ever reasonably hope for, what went down with SWG. Thanks for that.
The only thing I can do at this point is keep my antenna up, stay watchful and hope this kind of perfect storm doesn't form again with any project I happen to give a crap about. If it does, I'm smart enough - thanks to this experience - to keep things at an arms length, keep from getting attached, and know where the door is. My MMO cherry only needs to be popped once.
I'm not looking for Jeff to be out of work. Even Torres, who draws a lot of our nerd hate, was involved with the original KoTOR. Who am I to say he's really the fuck up he appeared in public to be? I've wished them all the best in the past, and I'll do it again here. Good luck Jeff. I'm all out of nerd rage, and have been for some time.
I'm just nosy. |
They didn't see it because they choose not to. This is the piece of info I'd been lacking that I'd long suspected but that Jeff Freeman has confirmed for me today.
Basically the Dev team attitude at the time was even WORSE than "fuck the players". They didn't regard us AT ALL... We were of zero value to them, they were going to make the game into something THEY liked, come hell or high water. That was what was important to them. In fact, they already had declared us gone probably months before the NGE.
We were disposable, and we were replaceable. We WOULD be replaced. So once they'd accepted that as fact, then they truly didnt' need to pay the slightest bit of attention to the reaction.
My God, how can ANYONE who's income depends COMPLETELY on people NOT hitting "cancel subscription" en mass EVER adopt that attitude? I mean, to not understand that what they are selling is entertainment, and they literally have to sell the game again every single month! MMO's truly don't belong to the publisher/developer like other games do, the players dictate it's fate by staying or going.
It just confirms to me that Smed, Cao, etc, have no business whatsoever in the gaming industry. It also confirms that the gross mismanagement of SWG from the late Pre-CU era through the CU to the NGE was even worse than I imagined. No wonder they lost their whole Dev team around that time, and that SOE has gushed away all it's talent. Who the fuck would want to work in a place like that? Cao and Smed sound like the "PHB"'s (Pointy Headed Bosses) from hell!
Freeman I am willing to accept his word, given how openly he's been willing to confess his part in it and what I believe to be sincere regret. I note that he admits as well that he doesn't WANT to be in management again, to be in that position again. I believe firmly that everyone deserves at least one "do over" if they ask for it in what I believe to be a sincere way. Well, I'm willing at this point to grant Jeff his.
I can respect that too. I am an excellent front line systems and networks engineer. I love doing the designs, the implimentation, and the "grunt work", because that is what got me into computers and networking to begin with. I have absolutely ZERO desire to advance into sr management, such as CTO, etc, which would take me OFF the front lines and away from what I love to do. If I advanced into that job, I'd probably fuck it up, because it's not my calling. |
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