actually, it isn't censorship the way he has it written...its a client side filter which means there is no imposing rules on what you type, only what the person using it reads.
it is the same as me not having a subscription to the playboy channel on my cable...i don't need it and i don't want it. but me not having it is not censoring its existence, its me not being exposed to it. or perhaps a better analogy is if it turns the playbody channel into the bravo channel.
censorship is what his initial idea was, to include the responses of npc's to be decidedly negative in response to players using any leet-speak or abbreviations in their presence. this is unfairly impinging on others gameplay and removing that idea is a good thing.
many nonnative english speakers are prone to abbreviated phrases and incorrect grammar such as using u and thx which is why i call it a grammar filter....1 star me if you want but brb, bbiab, lol, rofl, afaik, and other such things are not leet-speak. they are simply time saving chat devices people use routinely and have since the first chat rooms started many years ago. more will likely be added over time
I disagree with your analogy. Your analogy applies better to the ability to filter obscene language. l33t-speak is not an obscene language, but a legitimate means of expressing oneself. Just because the use of this "language" is currently prevelant with a single generation doesn't make it any less legitimate. l33t-speak represents an evolution of written language that has come about from an Internet culture. This can be likened to the evolution of spoken language over time, primarily driven by each new generation that graces our society. Do you want to stop this evolution as well?
And where does this type of censorship (and it is censorship) stop? Do you want a filter for bad spelling, poor grammar, abbreviations and acronyms?
My advice is simple. Lighten up and learn to adapt. The world is a broad base of many flavors of everything you can think of. Putting one flavor or another down is nothing less than prejudice and there is no room for these notions in any community, including online and gaming communities.
i agree with you that leet-speak in whatever form it takes is a completely legitamate language...to me its incredibily interesting watching the different terms evolve. however, what i'm pointing out is that there is nothing that is PREVENTING anyone from using it in this proposal. this is truly like the profanity filter which if you will notice also filters out religious terms. this is something you use by choice.
censorship removes choices from people...book bannings and the like limit the accessibility of others to the written word. in this case, its more like parental controls on your tv. it doesn't change what is available to the public only what the kids can watch.
should a filter such as the one proposed here ever be implemented, i will not be using it any more than i use the profanity filter. that is my choice. i don't feel that such filters, because they are optional and are not on the servers per se, qualify as censorship. i will make the choices that are right for me and no one else. nor will i tell others what they should or should not read on their screens.
freedom of choice is an implied right of the constitution only but this too is the American way
TGiamai Oewai (Elder Jedi without a clue)T
T Giaman Srawhe, 12 pt MWS [GS] Weapons, near Theed -3955, 3322T
actually, it isn't censorship the way he has it written...its a client side filter which means there is no imposing rules on what you type, only what the person using it reads.
it is the same as me not having a subscription to the playboy channel on my cable...i don't need it and i don't want it. but me not having it is not censoring its existence, its me not being exposed to it. or perhaps a better analogy is if it turns the playbody channel into the bravo channel.
censorship is what his initial idea was, to include the responses of npc's to be decidedly negative in response to players using any leet-speak or abbreviations in their presence. this is unfairly impinging on others gameplay and removing that idea is a good thing.
many nonnative english speakers are prone to abbreviated phrases and incorrect grammar such as using u and thx which is why i call it a grammar filter....1 star me if you want but brb, bbiab, lol, rofl, afaik, and other such things are not leet-speak. they are simply time saving chat devices people use routinely and have since the first chat rooms started many years ago. more will likely be added over time
I disagree with your analogy. Your analogy applies better to the ability to filter obscene language. l33t-speak is not an obscene language, but a legitimate means of expressing oneself. Just because the use of this "language" is currently prevelant with a single generation doesn't make it any less legitimate. l33t-speak represents an evolution of written language that has come about from an Internet culture. This can be likened to the evolution of spoken language over time, primarily driven by each new generation that graces our society. Do you want to stop this evolution as well?
And where does this type of censorship (and it is censorship) stop? Do you want a filter for bad spelling, poor grammar, abbreviations and acronyms?
My advice is simple. Lighten up and learn to adapt. The world is a broad base of many flavors of everything you can think of. Putting one flavor or another down is nothing less than prejudice and there is no room for these notions in any community, including online and gaming communities.
i agree with you that leet-speak in whatever form it takes is a completely legitamate language...to me its incredibily interesting watching the different terms evolve. however, what i'm pointing out is that there is nothing that is PREVENTING anyone from using it in this proposal. this is truly like the profanity filter which if you will notice also filters out religious terms. this is something you use by choice.
censorship removes choices from people...book bannings and the like limit the accessibility of others to the written word. in this case, its more like parental controls on your tv. it doesn't change what is available to the public only what the kids can watch.
should a filter such as the one proposed here ever be implemented, i will not be using it any more than i use the profanity filter. that is my choice. i don't feel that such filters, because they are optional and are not on the servers per se, qualify as censorship. i will make the choices that are right for me and no one else. nor will i tell others what they should or should not read on their screens.
freedom of choice is an implied right of the constitution only but this too is the American way
You are comparing apples and oranges. There do exist community standards in most civilized cultures, and profanity is almost universally considered unacceptable by those standards (althought what may be considered profane by one culture, may not be by another). However, language is a form of expression, and will always be considered acceptable, as long as it doesn't leverage that which the culture considers profane.
Let me put it another way. Would you be offended by someone speaking in a language that you don't understand (whatever that might be)? If you are offended by this, do you want to see SOE give you the ability to filter out languages that you don't understand? If not, then you are not consistent with whatever message you are trying to communicate.
Why stop with l33t-speak? Let's give players the ability filter "jive-talk", you remember the lingo from the 70's. Let's give players the ability to filter individual languages that they don't understand.
I have yet to hear people in a Star Wars movie shout 'I pwnz u noob' or the likes. You cannot compare this with filtering other languages, as they are heard in localized official versions of the Star Wars movies, too. I have yet to see an official Star Wars movie synchronized in leet (have you ever tried to talk that way?) or an Expanded Universe book as well.
Besides, would it really hurt your feelings that much if you defeated somebody in a duel and type 'I pwnz0r u n00b' and I read it as something that sounds more like it would be from a Star Wars movie or book like 'I beat you, kid'? This would increases immersion and Star Wars atmosphere for many. Perhaps you do not care about it yourself, but I got news for you: there are people that do.
Besides, I do believe a built-in translator could be quite useful for communication between different speaking people as well, and not at least offensive.
Jagged-F3l wrote:
damsel wrote:
What kills me about the whole thing is that the game is called a MMORPG = massive(ly) multiplayer online role-playing game. Yet, the majority are not roleplayers. *sigh*
Actually, SWG has been classified formally by the game industry as an MMOG, not an MMORPG.
As long as Lucas Arts advertises Star Wars Galaxies as an MMORPG and Role Playing - Massively Multiplayer Online, it is officially a massively multiplayer role-playing game in my book. Too hard to understand and believe? Try these links:
it isn't comparing apples and oranges...it can be argued that the profanity filter itself is a form of censorship by your definition. The reason? try saying merry christmas or happy easter to someone with the filter on. it doesn't go through. this has nothing to do with civilizations standards of morality, this has to do with keeping specific buzzwords from preventing arguing among players.
this somewhat offends me...this is why i don't use the profanity filter. well that and i like my filth presented to me in pure form so i can read it
what is proposed here isn't even a required filter...its optional. if you wish to think of it as applying to a language, then its more like a translational filter.
as an example, there are websites where you can put in text and have it returned in english. when a french speaking wookiee wandered into my city a year ago, i used one to direct him to what he was looking for. my high school french simply wasn't up to the task.
in this case, no i'm not offended in the least...instead that website was a tool allowing me to understand. if i chose not to use it, and again, notice there is choice involved once again, i could have just blown him off and gone about my merry way.
this proposal is purely about providing a tool that certain players may use by choice. if there were a jive talk translator available for those who wished to avoid jive talk, that becomes their choice to use it. i will choose not to.
btw..i can't think of jive without thinking of the move Airplane .. the subtitles in that movie were too funny. i actually think this "vision" would end up turning leet-speak into subtitles like that
TGiamai Oewai (Elder Jedi without a clue)T
T Giaman Srawhe, 12 pt MWS [GS] Weapons, near Theed -3955, 3322T
I have yet to hear people in a Star Wars movie shout 'I pwnz u noob' or the likes. You cannot compare this with filtering other languages, as they are heard in localized official versions of the Star Wars movies, too. I have yet to see an official Star Wars movie synchronized in leet (have you ever tried to talk that way?) or an Expanded Universe book as well.
Besides, would it really hurt your feelings that much if you defeated somebody in a duel and type 'I pwnz0r u n00b' and I read it as something that sounds more like it would be from a Star Wars movie or book like 'I beat you, kid'? This would increases immersion and Star Wars atmosphere for many. Perhaps you do not care about it yourself, but I got news for you: there are people that do.
Besides, I do believe a built-in translator could be quite useful for communication between different speaking people as well, and not at least offensive.
Jagged-F3l wrote:
damsel wrote:What kills me about the whole thing is that the game is called a MMORPG = massive(ly) multiplayer online role-playing game. Yet, the majority are not roleplayers. *sigh*
Actually, SWG has been classified formally by the game industry as an MMOG, not an MMORPG.
As long as Lucas Arts advertises Star Wars Galaxies as an MMORPG and Role Playing - Massively Multiplayer Online, it is officially a massively multiplayer role-playing game in my book. Too hard to understand and believe? Try these links:
"d00d, wht u doin?" "I'm sorry, although I am fluent in Basic, Ithorian, Ryl, Zabrak and Rodian, I still have no idea what the hell you are saying right now."
Message Edited by HiroTanaka on 04-02-200506:49 AM
So you're talking about cyber-slang terms. Thx, u, nvm, wtvr etc etc.
But think about this - do you think your "visions" will have any effects on the SWG? I mean, you're not a leader of some sort, or are you? No offense or anything but it's still our choice to say what we want. We can filter out any language we want but still, it will be our choice. We SHOULD have a choice. EVERYONE should have choices, right?
Anyway, I still respect your ideas to a limit but you should tone down on them a little bit...
I have yet to hear people in a Star Wars movie shout 'I pwnz u noob' or the likes. You cannot compare this with filtering other languages, as they are heard in localized official versions of the Star Wars movies, too. I have yet to see an official Star Wars movie synchronized in leet (have you ever tried to talk that way?) or an Expanded Universe book as well.
Besides, would it really hurt your feelings that much if you defeated somebody in a duel and type 'I pwnz0r u n00b' and I read it as something that sounds more like it would be from a Star Wars movie or book like 'I beat you, kid'? This would increases immersion and Star Wars atmosphere for many. Perhaps you do not care about it yourself, but I got news for you: there are people that do.
Besides, I do believe a built-in translator could be quite useful for communication between different speaking people as well, and not at least offensive.
Jagged-F3l wrote:
damsel wrote:What kills me about the whole thing is that the game is called a MMORPG = massive(ly) multiplayer online role-playing game. Yet, the majority are not roleplayers. *sigh*
Actually, SWG has been classified formally by the game industry as an MMOG, not an MMORPG.
As long as Lucas Arts advertises Star Wars Galaxies as an MMORPG and Role Playing - Massively Multiplayer Online, it is officially a massively multiplayer role-playing game in my book. Too hard to understand and believe? Try these links:
OK, I think you've gone over the edge now. Let's try to remember that this is game.
That is DEFINITELY over the edge... guys, tone down man. Do you even know what a role-playing game is? You play as a role of another person!! You play as your character in a cyber-virtual world with other characters and players.
But I still agree that lots of people are not role-players. Sadly. Unfortunately. This is sad.
That sucks dude.....You have no right to say that the way people speek is wrong, or it ruins gameplay....I was 100% with you on your FRS idea, but this is rediculous.....Leet speek isent offensive, and I know plenty of mature people who use it out of jest, or just sometimes for fun....who are you to deny them that?
your missing the point of the roleplay environment.
speaking in numbers "1337" and other strange forms give me a headache. sure I do it sometimes myself. I even make faces in ascii
O_O, O_o >_< ^_~ (-.-) XD =D =/
but in roleplay the last thing I wanna see is "lol, u r teh sux0rz, I am teh ub3r 1337. PWNTZ!"
as soon as someone walks into the Mos Eisley Cantina and starts that, I assume "not a roleplayer" and if they make an @$$ of themselves more by continuing to disrespect the roleplayers I put them on ignore. In roleplay, its like reading a book. and writing it as you go. Do any authors include "LOL" "U R TEH r0x0rz" or other leet speaking crap in conversations in their books? NO. Keep your leet speaking in your PvP guildchat or groupchat. Don't bring it to the roleplayers.
I fully support Gizmo's vision in this, and would pay to see him be a Dev. He'd be the most well liked--on top of being the most well respected.
I didn't play this game to see leet-speak. If I wanna see it, I'll play Counter-Strike or Quake 3 or some other FPS game.
Not a ROLEPLAYING GAME.
"Ray Shields." "Wait a minute! How did this happen? We're smarter than this!" "Apparently not ... I say patience" "Patience?" "Yes. Artoo will be along in a few moments and he'll relase the ray shields." "WOOOOOOOAAAAAAOHHHH" "See? No problem." "....Do you have a plan B?"
also, he did mention having the option to use it or not. maybe you should re-read the original post. ^_~
"Ray Shields." "Wait a minute! How did this happen? We're smarter than this!" "Apparently not ... I say patience" "Patience?" "Yes. Artoo will be along in a few moments and he'll relase the ray shields." "WOOOOOOOAAAAAAOHHHH" "See? No problem." "....Do you have a plan B?"
SgtCordak wrote: So you're talking about cyber-slang terms. Thx, u, nvm, wtvr etc etc.
But think about this - do you think your "visions" will have any effects on the SWG? I mean, you're not a leader of some sort, or are you? No offense or anything but it's still our choice to say what we want. We can filter out any language we want but still, it will be our choice. We SHOULD have a choice. EVERYONE should have choices, right?
Anyway, I still respect your ideas to a limit but you should tone down on them a little bit...
it is a choice...its a client side filter which you may or may not choose to use. this vision just suggests making such a filter available for people who want to rp /shrug
nothing wrong with that since it isn't something that would be forced on anyone
TGiamai Oewai (Elder Jedi without a clue)T
T Giaman Srawhe, 12 pt MWS [GS] Weapons, near Theed -3955, 3322T
Excellent ideas, well thought and realistic. I hope after CU goes live, the dev team will take some time to gather all the good ideas from the community ; there are some great ones, gizmo's visions are some of these.
Gizmo, have you ever received any feedback (PM, reply to a post or else?) from a dev about one of your ideas ?
Zooco - Hunter - Chimaera Neekocha - Retired Mayor of Aegis - Sunrunner
One of the BEST ideas I've seen for this game. Helps immersion, Improves playability for RPs, and allows every player the chance to manipulate the words being altered so that it only affects each individual user the way that they wish.
Personally, I use 1337 speak some times when I post on forums (usualy only on paintball though) and I never use it in game. I would love to be able to replace "noob" with "kid". I think that's a perfect example
To those that say that leet speak isn't offensive... Who the hell are you to say what other people like and dont' like. I hate seeing "I pwned u" "i m roxxors n u r suxxors" etc.
Best part of this for SOE is that once it's developed (simple screening processes like this already exist for forum like this one, hard part is just binding it to the right chat tabs I think) they won't have to do any more work on it. It's not like the warren where they tweak spawn rates or the continuous tweek of ID. Just make it, and forget about it. One more thing to make customers happy!
============================ Maco Cearo Elder Jedi (formerly MBH / MPist / Carb 0440) ============================ Valkyrie Elder MBH / MCM / Pist 0003 (FOTM) ============================ Account canceled due to NGE ============================ You can find me in Eve Online (www.eve-online.com) as Maco Dragoon
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