I'm going to try to lead you into this so that the skeptical ones are forced to read the whole post and I don't get those "read this part and stopped reading the rest" comments. When I first started out I looked over the possibilities and tried to find a "nitch" that most others had overlooked that looked like fun. While I could write a whole paper or 2 on just that subject, I'll just condense it to a few words. While many other possibilities existed for me, the most interesting was the "self sufficient" idea. My biggest setback to this line of thought was when 5 Crazed Durnis had me for their lunch. Again, spawn of Satan...

Shortening the story, the only nitch left to me (that had any appeal) was Space Mountain Man. In other words, the adventurer/Hunter. Artisans (tried that too but never mastered) needed stuff and it seemed not many were helping them out. So I tried.

I did well, as you can figure, but I learned (sic. The Crazed Durni) that I had to sacrifice to achieve "Ultimate Hunter" status. Thus I learned the first "problem". I thought "ultimate hunter" would be Rifleman/Ranger. It wasn't. I liked ranger so much that I could not bear to become a "dabbler" and this fundimental realization was haunting. However, at achieving MRM it was ok enough of a tool to hunt. But still the nagging performance issue vs. a dabbled Scout plus ultimate warrior template persists.

Farther into my career I got so successful (thanks to group harvesting: have to say that was a very good thing and made my little Ranger Band of Merry Men possible ) that I quickly failed to keep up with orders. Life was good. A bit stressful, but good.

I have friends, however, that took other paths. Equally valid and fun. I helped them sometimes and came to another realization: I will never be able to PvP without being laughed at. Also, as the game matured I would hear from many rangers telling me that they were about to become former rangers, for that very reason. I implored that many things were comming in the works for us but the response was something akin to "I'll check out the changes and see". To date, few have "come back".

The Epiphiny: PvE abilities and advantages do not carry to PvP, indeed, become wasted skill points. Racking my brain around this problem I applied many fixes and counters to the fixes. We nullify pets... no, they got nullified nicely already. We trap people ... no, that would p.o. the BH who's venue that really is. Also: it gets us status effects to people, but then I see a CM toss a poison bomb and it seem a really vapid and weak idea. No teeth really... and not unique and others do that better then we would ever hope to do (Carbineers are proported to become the kings of status change soon, and shouldn't Commandos be the ones throwing Granade-traps?). It does not seem quite right.

Are we then, ultimately, "miners" with a HUGE amount of labor involved? Some folks consider us a non-combate class yet it is vital to have a good combate ability to compete (that labor part)... taking points away from ranger, ultimately. Indeed, again, then why be ranger at all? It has been said a battle template and some scout harvests far faster then a single combat master and master ranger. There has to be something for taking away this combat ability. If we get humongous bonuses to creatures to compensate for this, I see ranger-krayt exploitation in our future. Increase harvest? Valid, but just how far can we go with this? Scout gets 17 wooley from a durni and we get 170? 2k from a Rancor? This feels like a band-aid to me. Is a Field Base upgrade going to keep our attention to the profession? Cool traps? We would need something akin to AoE 10 second root for equity... this may indeed be a salvation to this prof right there. However I am skeptical still...

Ultimatly, our fundimental problem is not in the bells and whistles. It's not even in our bugs, much of our bug problems are actually bypassable and simply "annoying". Fix them all, gain all the fancy traps and cool camps and defences and you are still looking at a simple to boil down problem: for 140 skill points we are nothing more then a smart harvestor. A labor class. Atm, labor is on strike it seems (200 Cr/U on harvestables) or "unionized in an ugly way". Biofarms? Now we make no money, or far, far less then cost. Increase harvest? With only 5 MR on a server that is not going to fly. We need to ultimatly make Ranger attractive, have a place in the GCW. I'm not sure skinning ST's or Reb Marines is participating in the GCW. It's like fitting a square peg in a round hole.

So what do we do? Just cave and we all dump it? Well, that day may come but I for one will go down fighting. Do you hear the snickering of Commandos and TKM and l337 d00ds wondering just what this prof is doing in here? There is only one thing that will stop the giggles and that fits our image and keeps us "in the game" and on par with other professions. Stealth in PvP. Stop right there DO NOT POST UNTIL YOU READ THE REST OF THIS.

But first, a little research. My direct experience with stealth have been in Starcraft, NWN and Mechwarrior IV. I have second hand knowledge of stealth in DAoC.

In Starcraft several units have stealth, but there is a counter detection system available. The stealth units can take out everything. If the detection devices are near or can be moved in the stealth units are vunerable. The detection devices or units themselves can be attacked. It's all a matter of stratagy.

NWN follows the same tradition as D&D stealth. There are 2 forms, from thieves and from MUs. Thieves require conditions to be right befor the deception works. MUs can work under most any condition. Balance is achieve for thieves with detection if the conditions break. For MUs this is on the first attack. Under both systems it allows for a first strike capability but can be detected if spells or conditions dictate.

In Mechwarrior the technology reduces the distance radar will pick up a 'mech. You also will have problems with IFF (Identify Friend from Foe) and are forced to more actively determine if you are out of the line of fire. In that game, ALL shots hit, friend, foe or indiferent. You can have 3rd party assets that you do not want to blow up. A 'mech becomes "stealthy" but not totally invisible. The game itself has ways of detecting 3rd party programs and actively scrambles packets to fool others. The stealth is achieved by adding a device to the mech, wich takes space from the weapons slots (sacrificing offensive power and/or defense). There is another device called a Beagle Active Probe, also taking "slots", that can defeat this somewhat and gives hightened senses. Overall, what you gain in stealth and guile you loose a bit of firepower or armour. The stealth gives you distance, basically. It lets you get closer so that you can tune you 'mech to midrange firepower or lets you escape from a confusing furball.

The only MMOG I know that has something akin to stealth is DAoC. That is a total denial of information sent to the client until certain conditions are met. There is a stealth class and a counter-stealth class. I don't know too much beyond that but what I hear is that it does work well and that any problems with the system that cropped up get worked out. If someone has direct experience of how they did that I would like to know more of those problems and solutions themselves.

And now, finally, my humble proposal.

Mechanics
Unless we have packet encryption (as stated in the Mechwarrior example) we may have to go with the DAoC method. It would also be the safest to prevent future methods not yet concieved. If the SW:G Client itself can detect it, a 3rd party progran can find the memory offest (eventually) and work with it. Therefor, the best method is not to send the client any data at all. Stealth may have to be all or nothing. If the devs are willing to have daily upgrades just for moving the memory locations of key systems and encrypt packets then we can have graduated stealth (I.E. see an indistunguisable mound and no radar footprint or you and no radar footprint or you looking like a Durni, ect.). I will therefor go on the assumption on that basis that this will be all or nothing. It would be the easiest to program and maintain security.

UPDATE 6/9/04:
It has come to my attention that the devs may have stated that the technology does not exist to impliment this. I would like to remind them that there is a function already in place that limits the distance you can see and target a MOB to 128m. You walk out to 130m+ and 30 seconds later all info to the client is severed, and you loose targeting. Walk back within 128m and you see it again and can target it. Thei is an excellent entry point for implimenting this stealth feature: add more conditions then distance to the on/off switch.

Initialization
To enable you must be prone, still and have camo. Therefor, when prone and using /conceal it activates. If standing or kneeling it should not work. It can re-activate going prone after getting up if you are not in combat. If you gain TEF prior then the TEF remains, although you can still drop off radar and vis if you are not in combat and go prone while concealed. If you attack the target sees you. A SL must be utilized for others to see you, more on this later. If you can drop off combat and radar as is done by the current methods then you have a chance to again activate stealth on that same target, but by that time you may have other "problems". You cannot activate if you have been seen already. For PC's this would be outside 128m, so you would have to "crawl in" from way out there and use /areatrack to know when to do it.

Application/Skill Sets
This should not be cheap. If you want stealth like this, it should only be at Master. Conversely, other professions should have a perception check, as would NPC's and critters (I believe there already is existing rules for this). An optional effect can be also a graduated /conceal skill through the skill trees, a bit like /areatrack is. When you first get /conceal it's critters only. At about the third box it's enabled for NPC's. At Master it's PC's as well. Perception should have a base level for everyone. Combat class level would have a slightly better perception. Ranged elite would be next higher, then BH higher, then Commandos, then the next best perception from Squad leaders and if grouped with a SL any one person detecting the Ranger will alert all to that Ranger. Best Perception would be given to another Ranger. SL would therfor be VITAL to a defense or raid.

Adjustments
For PvE all rules would still be in place. This is really a PvP change. The "tuning" would come from the perception rolls to see if it enables or not. There is room to tweak the power of this skill at this point. Also another way to tweak this power is to adjust when and how often this roll is made. This can be skill based, gaining ability with graduation in a profession. With this tuning you can adjust all the way from utter uslessness to uber power and anything in between.

Ok, that's it. Let the flames begin! But seriously, give this a thought and be constructive.

Message Edited by Fred_Skinner on 04-14-2004 10:12 AM

Message Edited by Fred_Skinner on 06-09-2004 05:40 PM

The main problem I see with this proposal is one that can be overcome: what can we do with this?  From what I can tell, this only lets a Ranger hide.  I don't think that on it's own is enough.  We need to work out some skills that can be used when hidden.  I'd be happy if we could move a bit and track.  I.E. we can spy on the opponent.  Crawling should give a huge advantage to the mod (to the point that we would always be detected at 80m or so when standing) but I'd be annoyed if we couldn't follow along secretly.  And make /areatrack have a chance of detecting another Ranger.  Although, thinking about this, vehicles make it hard to work anyway.  Overall, I agree that we need some form of stealth.  But it can't JUST be stealth.  It needs to have more uses than just being able to hide.

Lythender Nirou
Master Ranger/Master Rifleman
Eclipse Server

Ranger Calc here:  I stopped reading after the first paragraph.  I am very intrigued by it.  It would be great to get the recon abilities so many Rangers want.  I reserve the right to change my opinions at any time.

Message Edited by Calculus_Entropy on 03-30-2004 10:49 AM

I have given this thought - and I've come to the same conclusion you have, stealth can only come from complete denial of information to the client.  I'd wager that building in encryption at this point would be really complex, and probably lead to crippling lag as the packets are decoded on the client (lag is bad enough already with clear transmissions in some cases).

There is one concern that I've yet been able to solve though.  We know that there is a lag from client to client that causes avatars to appear in positions different than the server registers them at.  This lag can cause successful melee attacks to happen where the victim registers the attacker at 50m or more.

If stealth were employed in the fashion you suggest, would it not be open to taking advantage of this problem?

For example:

I drop prone at 128m, /conceal and start crawling in.  My target's client now no longer has any information on where I am, but the server does.  At 63m I pop up and hit a couple of strafe shots, now there is a period where I am effectively invisable as my position is translated to the client and that information rendered.  I'm of course moving by that point, so the server has to keep updating and the client is lagging behind my actual position.  I see it as very possible that I could pop up, strafe someone and burst-run out of visual range before their client even registers my position.  The victim therefore couldn't attack and I could /conceal again and repeat as much as I wanted.

On the flip side, the only advantage a ranged person has against melee is just that - range.  If I could crawl in, pop up and burst run in to a target I could probably be there and attacking before they even register my presence on their client.  Same situation for combat medics (the ultimate first strike weapon) - it's the same sort of situation encountered with GTEF (unattackable players vs vulnerable targets).

Best case, even if the exploits were not as bad as I fear, the Ranger class would become the home of griefers and uber PvP players.  These boards would look like the TKA boards and the GCW boards, and the "hunter" type Rangers would be even fewer and further between.

I personally think that Ranger should remain one of the only PvE oriented classes, and give us/ them (former Ranger here) some more specific (and relevant) content:

I'm thinking of /track, which would cause demand for Rangers to go through the roof as you could now get hunting content "on-demand" and not waste hours wandering around the landscape hoping for a spawn.

I don't know, maybe additional effects could be being able to traverse mine fields better, or disable a visible path through a minefield (much like the visible path you get in a city when you do a /find starport etc.).  In DAOC stealthers can be great sources of information to the main battle group, reporting movements of enemy, and great for surprises when the enemy thinks they have you outnumbered.

If they were to impliment stealth in such a way as you described, rangers might become a very useful tool in the gcw.

Ultima Online also had Stealth.

Limitations:

• It required a Hiding skill of 80+ before you could even begin gaining skill in Stealth.
• It required that you successfully Hide first before you could stealth
• Skill checks, and therefore advancement, were more difficult the more weight you carried/wore. Therefore a heavily armored character will have minimal chance at success until at least Master level.
• If you moved too close to another character, they had a chance to detect you. If you moved directly into a position occupied by someone else, you were instantly revealed.
• For every 10.0 skill points (for those of you not familiar with UO, all skills ranged from 0-100, and raised in .1 increments) you got approximately one step until you had to reapply stealth, or your next step would reveal you.
• Any action beyond moving or hiding (snooping, stealing, spellcasting, attacking, etc.) would reveal you, regardless of how recently you applied stealth.

Obviously, Stealth was not a very common skill, mainly because magical invisibility was generally more useful, and didn't require any skillpoints beyond Magery anyhow. But it was scary to see someone who was Grandmaster at it moving around. They'd disappear at one point, then reappear at the edge of the screen with some snide comment, then disappear immediately again. My rogue who hadn't even yet reached 70 skill was fun to play in this aspect.. People freak out when you suddenly appear next to them, snooping through their belongings.

Just another bit of data about MMORPG stealth.

---

BabyRancor wrote:

I have given this thought - and I've come to the same conclusion you have, stealth can only come from complete denial of information to the client.  I'd wager that building in encryption at this point would be really complex, and probably lead to crippling lag as the packets are decoded on the client (lag is bad enough already with clear transmissions in some cases).

There is one concern that I've yet been able to solve though.  We know that there is a lag from client to client that causes avatars to appear in positions different than the server registers them at.  This lag can cause successful melee attacks to happen where the victim registers the attacker at 50m or more.

If stealth were employed in the fashion you suggest, would it not be open to taking advantage of this problem?

For example:

I drop prone at 128m, /conceal and start crawling in.  My target's client now no longer has any information on where I am, but the server does.  At 63m I pop up and hit a couple of strafe shots, now there is a period where I am effectively invisable as my position is translated to the client and that information rendered.  I'm of course moving by that point, so the server has to keep updating and the client is lagging behind my actual position.  I see it as very possible that I could pop up, strafe someone and burst-run out of visual range before their client even registers my position.  The victim therefore couldn't attack and I could /conceal again and repeat as much as I wanted.

---

Not possible. The server is given the command to attack and you have to wait on the server to acknowledge this. Try poping a lair with attack/peace. You do not know from one second to the next the actual timing that this will work. Remember: once seen, always seen until you reset to the proper conditions. If you do this too fast NOTHING happens, no attack. If you get the attack off the target sees you now, and is autoattacking HE has to peace as well to get you out of combat. I doubt he would co-operate in this. Also: you can't burst run from 64 to 128m fast enough, they are going to find you. I have not seen a condition, other then slower modem users, where the time it takes for you to run 64m more after the "sniping". I would hold a timer here, however, for about 10 seconds so that if you stop and turn around they can close on you and keep you "visual".

---

On the flip side, the only advantage a ranged person has against melee is just that - range.  If I could crawl in, pop up and burst run in to a target I could probably be there and attacking before they even register my presence on their client.  Same situation for combat medics (the ultimate first strike weapon) - it's the same sort of situation encountered with GTEF (unattackable players vs vulnerable targets).

Best case, even if the exploits were not as bad as I fear, the Ranger class would become the home of griefers and uber PvP players.  These boards would look like the TKA boards and the GCW boards, and the "hunter" type Rangers would be even fewer and further between.

---

This is why we keep the PC stealth at master. You can't "Uber template" very well with 110 skill points. Like in my Mechwarrior example: sacrifice combat for stealth.

---

I personally think that Ranger should remain one of the only PvE oriented classes, and give us/ them (former Ranger here) some more specific (and relevant) content:

---

But we still suck here, and making us able to single-handedly wrestle Krayts is not going to go well with the rest of the community.

---

I'm thinking of /track, which would cause demand for Rangers to go through the roof as you could now get hunting content "on-demand" and not waste hours wandering around the landscape hoping for a spawn.

---

I thought that went over like a lead ballon last time the devs responded ... or did I remember that different? It's a similar response to the "let me pick my own mission" tread... devs don't like this ether. Dunno, I can pretty much find what I want as is and "generating" resource on demand is tinkering with the econimy in ways akin to duping credits.

---

I'm thinking of trophy loot only available to rangers, everyone would want a rancor head to hang on their wall.

 

I'm thinking of factional missions only given to Rangers that result in finding a lost convoy, or a crashed ship, or a secret meeting place.  From these missions alone should come the vast majority of the new schematics that the Dev's want in the game.  Wookiee armour getting put in game?  Armoursmiths now just seem to wake up with the knowledge of how to make this stuff.  Instead, Rangers can take missions that send them to given planet, makes them track to a specific location (maybe spawn could be located via a similar interface as the resource survey window), and grants a brand new schematic upon completion that can now be sold to the highest bidder.

---

While I like this, I don't think the devs will allow just us to have access to new schematics and I KNOW the rest of the community would not agree. I'm not sure we can make that fly.

---

Calculus_Entropy wrote:

Ranger Calc here:  I stopped reading after the first paragraph.  I am very intrigued by it.  It would be great to get the recon abilities so many Rangers want.  I reserve the right to change my opinions at any time.

 

Correspondent Calc here:  You mind if I post a link to this on the Correspondent forum, for opinions?

Message Edited by Calculus_Entropy on 03-30-2004 10:49 AM

---

---

Fred_Skinner wrote:

---

BabyRancor wrote:

I have given this thought - and I've come to the same conclusion you have, stealth can only come from complete denial of information to the client.  I'd wager that building in encryption at this point would be really complex, and probably lead to crippling lag as the packets are decoded on the client (lag is bad enough already with clear transmissions in some cases).

There is one concern that I've yet been able to solve though.  We know that there is a lag from client to client that causes avatars to appear in positions different than the server registers them at.  This lag can cause successful melee attacks to happen where the victim registers the attacker at 50m or more.

If stealth were employed in the fashion you suggest, would it not be open to taking advantage of this problem?

For example:

I drop prone at 128m, /conceal and start crawling in.  My target's client now no longer has any information on where I am, but the server does.  At 63m I pop up and hit a couple of strafe shots, now there is a period where I am effectively invisable as my position is translated to the client and that information rendered.  I'm of course moving by that point, so the server has to keep updating and the client is lagging behind my actual position.  I see it as very possible that I could pop up, strafe someone and burst-run out of visual range before their client even registers my position.  The victim therefore couldn't attack and I could /conceal again and repeat as much as I wanted.

---

Not possible. The server is given the command to attack and you have to wait on the server to acknowledge this. Try poping a lair with attack/peace. You do not know from one second to the next the actual timing that this will work. Remember: once seen, always seen until you reset to the proper conditions. If you do this too fast NOTHING happens, no attack. If you get the attack off the target sees you now, and is autoattacking HE has to peace as well to get you out of combat. I doubt he would co-operate in this. Also: you can't burst run from 64 to 128m fast enough, they are going to find you. I have not seen a condition, other then slower modem users, where the time it takes for you to run 64m more after the "sniping". I would hold a timer here, however, for about 10 seconds so that if you stop and turn around they can close on you and keep you "visual".

Good point, the single character scenario is not a problem.  <thinks> What about multiple players, say a group of five each popping up and engaging one after the other.  Would it be too overpowered?

---

On the flip side, the only advantage a ranged person has against melee is just that - range.  If I could crawl in, pop up and burst run in to a target I could probably be there and attacking before they even register my presence on their client.  Same situation for combat medics (the ultimate first strike weapon) - it's the same sort of situation encountered with GTEF (unattackable players vs vulnerable targets).

Best case, even if the exploits were not as bad as I fear, the Ranger class would become the home of griefers and uber PvP players.  These boards would look like the TKA boards and the GCW boards, and the "hunter" type Rangers would be even fewer and further between.

---

This is why we keep the PC stealth at master. You can't "Uber template" very well with 110 skill points. Like in my Mechwarrior example: sacrifice combat for stealth.

I didn't take time to run the numbers the first time - but my first concern of a stealth combat medic is not possible if Master Ranger is required for stealth.  That's a good thing   You can still have a Master TKA or a Master Rifleman though and keep Master Ranger.  It would definately accomplish the goal of making Ranger a viable PvP addition, but it wouldn't be the Ranger part of the equation that does it - it would be the combination of combat skills with Ranger for stealth alone.

---

I personally think that Ranger should remain one of the only PvE oriented classes, and give us/ them (former Ranger here) some more specific (and relevant) content:

---

But we still suck here, and making us able to single-handedly wrestle Krayts is not going to go well with the rest of the community.

---

I'm thinking of /track, which would cause demand for Rangers to go through the roof as you could now get hunting content "on-demand" and not waste hours wandering around the landscape hoping for a spawn.

---

I thought that went over like a lead ballon last time the devs responded ... or did I remember that different? It's a similar response to the "let me pick my own mission" tread... devs don't like this ether. Dunno, I can pretty much find what I want as is and "generating" resource on demand is tinkering with the econimy in ways akin to duping credits.

This is my own personal bugbear - I really dislike the hours of fruitless wandering inherent to hunting on my server.  Krayts are really really rare on Sunrunner compared to other servers, and the recient troubles with random spawns on Lok and other planets makes big game hunting a decidedly non-casual event.

---

I'm thinking of trophy loot only available to rangers, everyone would want a rancor head to hang on their wall.

 

I'm thinking of factional missions only given to Rangers that result in finding a lost convoy, or a crashed ship, or a secret meeting place.  From these missions alone should come the vast majority of the new schematics that the Dev's want in the game.  Wookiee armour getting put in game?  Armoursmiths now just seem to wake up with the knowledge of how to make this stuff.  Instead, Rangers can take missions that send them to given planet, makes them track to a specific location (maybe spawn could be located via a similar interface as the resource survey window), and grants a brand new schematic upon completion that can now be sold to the highest bidder.

---

While I like this, I don't think the devs will allow just us to have access to new schematics and I KNOW the rest of the community would not agree. I'm not sure we can make that fly.

 

Probably not - but a fellow can dream can't he

---

In the final analysis I really do like the idea Ranger Fred, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate to make sure the Rangers have a really solid arguement to put forward to the Devs.

Perhaps in addition to the stealth skill we could incorporate a Ranger-specific weapon that will do a specific attack.  Or perhaps just the specific attack without the Ranger weapon (as I'm not sure how well that concept was recieved).  That way there is no synergy (and possible exploit) with other combat abilities.

Something like this would mean that stealth is more of a precurser to a powerful attack, but no other type of attack can be made from a stealth state.  Rangers would then become either the first troops to attack or a special forces group that picks off critical people in the midst of a PvP battle (docs, combat medics, squad leaders if they're ever fixed).