Vorpaks wrote: A Ranger is a hunter. That is just one of our many possible applications. It has become our main focus by default over time because tracking/harvesting is our one really useful skill. Now that our revamp is approaching we have a chance to open it up and encompass other aspects of the game. Woot! Finally!
It's the main focus not only because of those two skills. But all the skills really point to that role as the MAIN one. Using camps allows you to heal in the wild without returning to town. That is a hunter type skill.
That should remain the main role.
Actually when I first started Ranger I thought I would be the "survivalist" the point man for the group, making sure everyone was safe as we traversed to our chosen spots (hunting, battlefields, etc.) pulling and rearranging aggros as needed and dodging, outrunning shots like a true athlete. Sadly "survivalist" is dead dead dead. Crushed under the weight of shuttleports, speeders, and POIs. /playviolin Never to return until SWG2 when they introduce new adventure planets where shuttles can not land and no speeder bikes can traverse.
I never thought I would be the hunter. As I realized I really brought no bonus to a group and gathering resources was a contribution I could make to the guild (though their constant chant was "Go TKA! Go TKA!" /playviolinlouder) I became the solitary hunter. And I enjoy it. SWG is an amazing game and even though I am not doing what I originally thought I would be doing, I still have a lot of fun. However, I am Ranger 0030. Because that is all you need to be a hunter. None of the other skills enhance me as a hunter, and unless they become super incredible they will not make me a better hunter than my second master combat profession can make me.
People go into Ranger now thinking it will be a hunting profession because what they read on the board and see of Rangers in game. Most of those probably go like me - Ranger 0030. Those who go off the original description are usually disappointed and leave or hang around like us wackos and hope things will get better. Those who hange around AND keep the Master tag /respect. You are truly insane and we thank you for it.
Killing animals is such a small part of this game. Using the skills that we currently use on animal hunting in all aspects of combat is so much better. The focus should be the skills - not what we are able to use them on. That is a personal choice. Making all the other skills we don't use in hunting (0030 remember) useful as well and you have an amazing amount of opportunities which can be refined and defined in our revamp. I am looking forward to this becoming a really attractive and interesting profession for any player to consider.
Message Edited by Vorpaks on 12-23-200404:42 PM
Paks Master Ranger/MasterCreature Handler -I support ATK play
Well see it in this light. We would have skills all over our proffession that fall into the recon catagory. We are spending alot of time developing ideas that have multiple uses as it promotes longer fun factor and more oportunities. Whilst you would not have to be a recon unit, you could be a hunter, you could a survivalist, if you used them all together the most dominant function you would have would be reconaissance.
Not becuase the profession is dedicated to it, but the proffesion allows you to fully realise this role if you want to.The only primary role realy is ranger but the next in line is recon unit and as we are developing ideas, recon takes precidence over the many meanings of ranger. Dont think about recon as the direction of our entire skill set, we are puttig much more effort in for it to be that, think of it as a rugby team. (English damn it hehe)
You have a speedy winger, used to run fast, carry the ball long distances, chase the ball down and hang back for kicks over the top. This part of the team is equaly functional in itself than any other part of the team.
You have a prop, use to power the ball forward in contested areas, recover the ball from hostile hands and defend your lines from attack. This part of the team is again equaly functional as any other part.
You then have a hooker (tisk tisk dont laugh), used to bind the pack in a scrum, dominate the front lines and take many hits running and tackling.
These 3 parts all play a large part in their own right, they all play rugby, but combine them and you have a rugby TEAM. A collective unit highlighted under one heading that provides another function all together. A winger is still a winger but use all the part together and you have a team.
In the same way we are shooting for this set up. 3 sub roles each extremely important in their own right, the are all ranger, but combine them together and you have RANGER. A collective set of roles highlighted under one heading that provides another function all together. A suvival skill is a survival skill but combine it with the others and you have a new oportunity that opens up to you, a recon role.
I think there is a weird definiton of recon going on here. Trapping is definitely not recon - it reveals your presence, possibly your position, and definitely your hostile intent. Trapping is an offensive skill. Recon is more of a stealth skill and, as much as I hate to say it, a survivalist skill. Survive, undetected, in hostile territory.
I am a moron. Sorry Owen. (grin) Thats what I get when I try to play, post, and pay the pizza guy at the same time.
Message Edited by Vorpaks on 12-23-200405:16 PM
Paks Master Ranger/MasterCreature Handler -I support ATK play
ya it doesnt involve alot of survival. As do alot of things.
However it wouldnt be too much to think you would use traps to support that role.
After all surveying the area is often the pre-cursor to an attack. It wouldnt be too hard to think a recon unit would set traps to aid in escape, even if detected and perhaps to aid in the attack.
camo, survival, tracking, creature knowledge (lays the paving stones for further intel gathering on targets)
All are recon specific.
Lets look at the definition of Recon again.
: a preliminary survey to gain information; especially: an exploratory military survey of enemy territory
Neither camo, survival, nor creature knowledge really fall into that.
You don't have to be camo'd to gather information on a target. Nor do you need to know how to survive in the wilderness. Nor is creature knowledge required.
Those may make it easier in some cases but they are not required and not part of Recon. You can do air recon or satelite recon. I don't see those using survival, camo, or creature knowledge. Yet that is doing recon. Spies recon targets but they don't use those skills.
They are not Recon specific. They may make it easier but they are definately not required or part of it. Which is why Recon may be a sub-role, but not the primary one.
Spies would use espionage, deception, infiltration. Those are the skills that allow them to recon. Yes you could have a spy walk into a secret base a recon without ever using any skills but that isnt to say he/she would be training up to use them if the situational required them.
Just because they arnt required all the time doesnt mean they arnt an important part.
As a recon unit you could just walk through a jungle somewhere, just luck out on finding a hidden base or group of enemy, gather your intel and walk away. BUT (apart from being highly unlikely) the recon unit would be well versed in hiding his/her tracks, getting the target/objective better, minimising the chances of getting seen, being able to know what to look for (knowledge) and also like i was saying before even know how to booby trap his/her surroundings to know when he/she has been detected, make a better escape or lay the ground for an incoming strike.
Just because you wouldnt always need those skills doesnt mean you shouldnt have then at hand and be very important. In my eyes you cannot gain substantial combat related intel without some sort of stealth and survival. People just wont let you walk past them or take pictures of bomb sites.
My point is having the arsenal of a recon unit play out over 4 tiers is not out of the ordinary, you think rl recon units and spys only have training in collecting info? Or do they get more training that that in take into account lots of other variables.
I think we're beating a dead horse here. We've already stated that it is possible that Survivalist and Recon may swap, and its totally possible that when we're done one or the other may even be removed or redefined completely.
The basic confusion here, which Owen has touched on nicely, and which Paks mentioned on a response to Ace, is that the mistake of labeling Ranger as a "hunter" or "outdoorsman" is pigeon-holing the profession based on the 1 or 2 existing skills that non rangers THINK being a Ranger is all about.
I see no problem with expanding the role and to this point there has been no real skill creeping going on. We've not asked for anything that steps on another professions toes, nor have we asked for anything that is outside the scope of the existing skillset. Though its true that we are an advanced version of scout... Scout:Ranger like Medicoctor... its important to remember that many of the Scout skills were considered "military" as Waste seems to define it.
BHs had strong requirements coming out of Scout. Trapping, Camping and Hunting specifically. For the BH those were supposed to represent an aspect of their Bounty Hunting Role, an aspect of their role in person to person combat. Of course they never really were fully developed and as a result the BHs wanted the pre-reqs removed.
Before anyone thinks their being removed from BH pre-reqs is a proof they aren't military oriented, I submit that the removal of this requirement was due to the inability of the Dev staff to quickly and adequatly fix and revamp what must have been considered an SP sink for all involved. Remember, it came alongside a very unpopular change to Jedi.
The majority of the existing Scout profession has the possibilty of pushing the Ranger profession into what Waste has defined as a "Military" role. What I think it really comes down to is fully defining "Recon," something that might best be dealt with when we actually start filling out a skill tree. Who knows, when its done we might totally change it. Right now, from where we're coming from it jsut seems to be the most accurate term.
I do think that fears of "feature creep," and stepping on other professions toes are premature. It's not like we're asking for the ability to take cover or use a conceal shot. The direction this is going in, simply, revolves around the ever present request to be able to truly camoflauge ourselves in order to gain some tactical advantages in PvP and PvE.
Recon is the act of gathering intel. The other factors you are talking about are not part of Recon. They are other acts that may make it easier or safer. But they aren't Recon.
And it is quite easy to get to combat intel without survival or stealth. We do it with satelites and aircraft all the time. We do it thru communications intercepts. In a technology based society you are going to do far more Recon thru those means than sneaking thru the woods. It's quicker, safer, and you generally get better intel.
RL recon units of the type you are talking about have military training. Which was my other earlier point. Nothing in the Ranger pre-reqs indicate a military training. If you want a military focus for Ranger, as indicated by making it across all four tiers, then you need a military base to start from. That doesn't exist in this case.
its important to remember that many of the Scout skills were considered "military" as Waste seems to define it.
None of the scout skills are military skills.
The majority of the existing Scout profession has the possibilty of pushing the Ranger profession into what Waste has defined as a "Military" role.
Giving it some military role isn't the same as giving it this role as its primary.
I do think that fears of "feature creep," and stepping on other professions toes are premature. It's not like we're asking for the ability to take cover or use a conceal shot. The direction this is going in, simply, revolves around the ever present request to be able to truly camoflauge ourselves in order to gain some tactical advantages in PvP and PvE.
And again that isn't a problem. As that is an extension of the 'Hunting' aspect. But switching to a primarily 'Military' role with no base for this is an issue.
Right now, from where we're coming from it jsut seems to be the most accurate term.
How so? It's an innacurate term for what is being asked for. Recon is solely the gathering of intel. It isn't stealth, camo, or survival. None of those are requirements to perform Recon. As explained in prior post.
Lets concentrate on ways to improve Ranger and worry about what to actually call it later.
My suggestions:
Camo Branch - Ghost (Silent Stalker?)
Tier 4
Tier 3
Tier 2
Tier 1
This branch involves stealth moves and recon type abilites. Higher level abilities allow PvP stealth moves.
Hunting Branch - Hunt Master
Tier 4
Tier 3
Tier 2
Tier 1
This branch includes harvesting bonuses, and damage bonuses to creatures. Along with to hit bonuses vs creatures.
Survival - Survivor
Tier 4
Tier 3
Tier 2
Tier 1
This branch includes camps, fish/egg/milk harvesting bonuses, creature poison/disease/states resistance and creature damage mitigation.
Traps - Ambusher
Tier 4
Tier 3
Tier 2
Tier 1
This branch includes traps and powerful planet specific high powered traps and a Lure ability. Also includes 'Alertness' bonuses which is a counter to the stealth abilities from Camo branch
I haven't put in Tracking as I'm torn between where to put it. Don't want to overload one branch and make it very attractive for dabbling. Though I'm heavily leaning towards the Camo branch.
As for the planet specific traps. I saw a suggestion before here about log traps and quicksand traps. Sounded good though I though it might be hard to do those on say Tat that has little to no wood or water for those traps. These high powered traps would be a drop variety (like a mine field) with a short life span (30 min or less). The Lure ability would be used to draw the target to the dropped trap.
Like bil said we are going around in circles here.
We are not talking about satalites nor planes nor hackers, we are talking about people, more specifically rangers.
Although those things i highlighted arnt specific to reconnaissance thats the point im trying to prove to you. They help, it wouldnt be beyond grasp to think a person would be trained to be a recon unit and under that roll have skills that could support situations he/she may find themselves in.
Thats why i feal it is the primary role, you have skills under recon that help you do it better and function as a recon unit. And the part about military training still amuses me, what has military training got to do with swg? you dont sign up to any army to learn your skills, NO profession requires military training.
If you are talking about firearms or melee weapon training then fair enough, i dont think we should have rifles, pistol or carbines or 2hd swords, 1hd swords, pikes or knucklers infact any weapon currently in the game unless we have a pre-req that supports it.
But we do have a weapon and we do have pre-reqs for them, traps.
The only thing that should be up for discussion should be whether a ranger should have a firearm or melee weapon, any other military related issue is fair game. You dont have to sign up to recieve training therefor your profession can learn anything it wants. Bringing basic understandings from scouts and taking them into the pvnpc and pvp arena is just a natural step, one which ranger should take.
Well just remember survival, trapping, exploration and stealth arnt 'Required' for hunting either when you are pushing that role. Same for survivalist, tracker, camper or any other role you can come up with. Nothing is required and never should be. We arnt making a one dimentional profession here, not like rifleman and any other core combat profession, we are talking about a 4 tier pre-req that needs to take them all into account thefore needs one role to take dominance over the rest.
You will never find a better role, they all suffer from the same flaws (the dont need other parts and need to support other areas). Recon allows us to expand trapping, stealth, survival, hunting and information gathering under one heading so its there doing its job.
Recon units are first and foremost infantry units. They are light infantry trained to operate behind enemy lines. That makes them Commandos.
The basis for any infantry unit if weapons training. Which Rangers don't have. We also already have Infantry in SWG. Those are Rifleman. We also have special forces units in Carbineers. Which is where the danger of infringing on other professions comes from.
Stepping up the Hunter angle to include NPCs and PCs is fine. However claiming a primary role as a military unit while ignoring the basics of military training seems to be an issue. There is no problem with expanding the Ranger role to the PvP and NPC arena. Frankly you guys need it. But it needs to be from a basis as an extension of your outdoors abilities. Not as a military unit that you aren't qualified for.
Our disagreement is one of the angle of attack. I say extend those Ranger abilities into the NPC and PC arena via the Hunter focus. You are saying to do it from the angle of a Recon unit. The problem is their is no foundation for your request. As you are claiming a military role without the military foundation.
The end result though is we are both saying to give Ranger the exact same skills. We both want Stealth (PvP and PvE) and we both want Traps to work against all target types. We are only disagreeing on how to approach that and what those abilities are extensions of.
Which is why we can hold off for now and work towards our common end result and worry about the semantics later. We agree on a great deal. We only disagree on the words used to argue for those skills we want to see added and changed for Ranger.
