I think it could possible look something like this...

 As viewed left to right on the skill tree...

1) Reconnaissance Operative,  Combination of Wayfareing and Tracking, including terren navigation, camo kits, and infromation collection 1. Camouflage/Navigation, same as now 2. Tracking/Movement, same as now 3. NCP/creature, examination stats.. really thurough 4. Harvesting, same creature multiple harvest, ie.. one bantha ability to collect woolly hide and bone.

2) Outdoorsman, Encompassing Frontierman, 1. Advanced Encampments, somthing along the lines of being able to find a good place to set a camp and not be in a minicple area, 2. Backcountry Recuperation, including some basic med crafting and HAM recovery  3. Combat Survial, possible defence mods? 4. Functional Base Encampment, somthing that may be too extream for the ranger prof, but maybe an encampment that has a defencive and offencive measures as a way to protect itself, pretty much improving the HTFB.

3) Huntsman Expert, name could use some work, Should be the skills people hire us for. 1. Harvest Examination, /harexam, should be used to determine how much can be harvested from a creature along with the stats for the harvested units, i.e. PE, OQ, 2. Group Enhancement, gives extra exp for group harvests and kills, 3. Skill Improvement, improves skilles already possessed by the ranger 4. Group Camouflage, enhances the /conceal to the /gconceal, allowing concealment of everyone in the group within 5 meters, also less likens the chance of a camouflage break.

4)  Ambush Specialist, Traps R'Us, 1. Trapping Basics, continuation of the /rescue command along with the traps avialable to rangers now,  2. First Strike, /fstk command would allow the ranger to throw a few traps of get off multilple special attacks before the creature would retaliat, 3. Ambush Tactics, ability to use traps that effect all states of health, i.e. stun, blind, dizzy, etc. 4. Trap Evolution, traps that would be able to be used in PvP battle or against NCPs i.e. The Darwin Trap

This is my view of what the possible tiers could consist of, just one of the many possiblities. The Darwin Trap was proposed in forum -http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=ranger&message.id=81127. This is a very workable proposal, rip it a new one many times over, whatever it takes get the job done for the community.

Message Edited by Cosra13 on 12-14-2004 03:47 AM

Message Edited by Cosra13 on 12-14-2004 04:41 AM

Message Edited by Cosra13 on 12-14-2004 05:30 AM

Sub-Roles:
- Hunting Guide: With skills orientated around hunting, tracking, group hunting enhancments and harvesting.
- Survivalist: With skills orientated around frontiering, combat survival (resistances/defenses), recouperation (poisons reductions etc), group wilderness survival (camo/camps)
- Ambush Specialist: Emphasis on powerfull ground traps, first strike capabilities and group support thrown traps. 

QFE up there...

Quick Note:  Our Primary Role needs to be equally dispersed over the four trees.  In the event that One tree fully meets our "Recon" role we're stuck dealing with dabblers who want to do one tree and get the best part of our profession.  That said, I've set up this tree to build the Recon role through each of the branches.  They're described in the "overview" section right below.

Tier Overview:
- Concealment: In order to gather information a Ranger must be succesful at hiding themselves.
- Frontiering:  Recon specialists must be able to get to and from good vantage points easily.
- Hunting:  With skills surrounding human and animal tracking a Ranger is good at collecting information about who their "studying."
- Advanced Trapping:  With the proper amount of information a Recon specialist can trap, avoid traps, and help his fellow party members avoid danger.

Concealment (Shadow)
- Concealment 1:  Basic Camoflauge
- Concealment 2:  Basic Stealth Techniques
- Concealment 3:  Covert Activities
- Concealment 4:  Master Stealth Tecniques

Description: This should cover our /Conceal skill as well as carry any modifiers which fall under "hiding."

Description: If it were up to me right now Trapping would cover the main roles of ambush and traps.  Somewhere around Trapping 4, if not Master Ranger, we'd get the ability to trap in PvP but in earlier parts of the tree it wouldn't be viable.  See the third Sub-Role.

Though I do not have the time to go into a full list...awww, what the heck.  Ok, here we go:
 
Trees:
Hunting Tactics (Antarian Ranger)
Wilderness Survival (Outdoorsman or the “Politically Correct” Outdoor Expert)
Trappery [Is that even a word?] (Trap Master)
Wilderness Combat (Field Agent)

Skill boxes:
Hunting Tactics
Box I: Increased Harvest – The usual harvest bonuses, continued in every box in this tree.
Box II: Tracking – the /track command given, but limited use.
Box III: Specialized Hunting - /specializeanimal command given (kill 100 of a creature to make it a “speciality” creature, a 20% bonus of damage is given to specialized cratures), more use for /track
Box IV: Lethal Aiming Tactics – another “specialized” animal given, /killingblow given, /preciseaim given (like /aim, but more like a /aim2)

Wilderness Survival
Box I: Basic Survival Tactics – FB schematic given, TN plus throughout tree
Box II: Natural Wound Healing - /forageherb command given (can forage a medicinal herb [Read: BF(RARE, RARE, RARE, RARE)/wounds/damage/poison/disease healing] of user’s choice; result based on skill with command), poison and disease resistances given from this box forward
Box III: Path Clearing – the /track command is given more use and bonuses, and updated waypoints can be given to SLs via HTFB terminal
Box IV: Habitat Engineering - /placehuntingcabin, HTFB schematic given

Trappery
Box I: Basic Traps – the basic traps
Box II: Ground Traps – lures, ground traps given here
Box III: Humanoid Traps – the first NPC traps given, Player controlled Creature traps given too, trap launcher schematic given
Box IV: Advanced and Deadly Humanoid Traps – Player traps given, more advanced creature/NPC traps given

Wilderness Combat
Box I: Reconnaissance - /recon command, innate bonuses to melee and ranged combat given throughout tree
Box II: Camouflage and Combat - /combatconceal given
Box III: Nature’s Allies – small /burstrun bonus, /enrageanimal (enrages look at animal with current combat target [has a chance of the enraged animal attacking the Ranger based on skill] but requires some sort of schematic to craft something so it isn’t too powerful…)
Box IV: Shadowy Escape - /stealth command given, large /burstrun bonus given

Ok, so, this lets us specialize in PvP, PvE and the GCW.  We can solo animals, we can stay in the wild for extended periods of time, we can kill NPCs/Players/Animals, we can recon, and every bonus is intertwined in a sense so dabblers will be discouraged.

Message Edited by Rhyeal on 12-15-2004 09:11 PM

Message Edited by Owen-Lars on 12-21-2004 01:29 PM

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Owen-Lars wrote:

Primary Role:

- Recon: With skill orientated around stealth, intel (gathering and distribution), tracking and movement 

 

Sub-Roles:

- Hunting Guide: With skills orientated around hunting, tracking, group hunting enhancments and harvesting.

- Survivalist: With skills orientated around frontiering, combat survival (resistances/defenses), recouperation (poisons reductions etc), group wilderness survival (camo/camps)

- Ambush Specialist: Emphasis on powerfull ground traps, first strike capabilities and group support thrown traps. 

 

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  I have an issue with Recon being the primary role. It may make sense as a sub-role, but not the main focus of the profession. Maybe it is just the name Recon which has a particular military meaning. Based on how the Ranger tree is set up, even under your idea, the term Survivalist would seem to be a better choice.

  I see that you have Survivalist listed as a sub-role. However Survivalist means one is is versed in living and surviving in a wilderness setting. That includes what you mentioned but also tracking, evasion, hunting, etc. It's all skills that allow one to survive and thrive in the wilderness with minimal equipment.

  Recon is to much a military term that doesn't seem to apply in this situation.

  I have a similar concern about Ambush Specialist. Something more along the lines of Trapper may be in order. Though that is a Scout branch title I believe. Would need to find an alternate name for Trapper, but when I hear Ambush Specialist I think of someone or a group hiding in the bush waiting to attack someone else. Like /ConcealShot.

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Waste93 wrote:

*SNIP*

  I have an issue with Recon being the primary role. It may make sense as a sub-role, but not the main focus of the profession. Maybe it is just the name Recon which has a particular military meaning. Based on how the Ranger tree is set up, even under your idea, the term Survivalist would seem to be a better choice.

Personally I'm not totally against this.  As the document has developed more and more of the community has leaned on this definition as including their expectations, which is why we're running with it.  I do understand what you're saying here though.

  I see that you have Survivalist listed as a sub-role. However Survivalist means one is is versed in living and surviving in a wilderness setting. That includes what you mentioned but also tracking, evasion, hunting, etc. It's all skills that allow one to survive and thrive in the wilderness with minimal equipment.

  Recon is to much a military term that doesn't seem to apply in this situation.

Completely disagree here.  Despite not being a "core-combat" profession Ranger is not non-military.  The descriptions found in the trapping line make it very possible for the more military related aspects of the Ranger and Scout profession to appear while still keeping the profession true to its form.

  I have a similar concern about Ambush Specialist. Something more along the lines of Trapper may be in order. Though that is a Scout branch title I believe. Would need to find an alternate name for Trapper, but when I hear Ambush Specialist I think of someone or a group hiding in the bush waiting to attack someone else. Like /ConcealShot.

Well then you're thinking exactly along the lines of what the Rangers want.  Trapping really seems to have hit a wall coming out of Scout.  We get "Rescue," an underused and some might argue poorly implemented skill, which is something we've chose to build from.  The Ranger, who's gained the ability to mask his scent and camoflauge himself from nearby hostile entities would be gaining the ability to better aid his group in launching ambushed attacks on an opponent.  Whether it be having camo work against a mob of NPCs (as it does now) or somehow branching into PvP this is what the Ranger community feels is needed to fill out the profession.

A hunter is essentially "ambushing" his prey afterall.  In many cases the deer, bear, kreetle, or squill has no idea that the hunter is nearby until the first shot is fired.

ConcealShot and Camo are two comepletely different entities.

ConcealShot prevents agro while firing it.

Camo prevents agro until a shot is fired.

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Ranger, though, most certainly has potential for being a military profession.  The ground work exists in both the skill descriptions AND the existing skills.

I can understand how people might describe us as "not core combat"  but I disagree wholeheartedly with the belief that we're not combat oriented or should not have "military" skills.  To  implement things which deny us a role in PvP is an assault on the people who have worked so hard to define a profession.

In the past, Waste and I have engaged in several discussions surrounding Profession roles, I understand where he's coming from but I think its important for people to realize that the Ranger community has been mobilizing for a demonstration of what a playerbase can truly do when it takes charge of the direction of its aspect of gameplay.

The Ranger profession is a dedicated and ingenious group with great ideas and with a great deal of motivation.  Despite an almost complete absence of public recognition from the Dev team the Rangers have soldiered on and fought to define their profession in a way which has evolved past what the Dev team might have originally envisioned.

Striking down the old misguided perceptions of Ranger is my goal here, that and doing something special.  Being a part of a Profession which was defined by a playerbase is an incredibly unique and exciting prospect.

  I disagree. Recon can fit under Survivalist, not really the other way around. The literal meaning of Recon is : a preliminary survey to gain information; especially : an exploratory military survey of enemy territory

  Neither stealth nor tracking are required for Recon. Though of course they are helpful. Which is why I see it as part of Survivalist and not the other way around. Nor is all Recon done in the wilderness. There is air recon, satalite recon, etc. Survivalist is a sufficiently broad term but it also is used to specifically refer to a wilderness setting.

  As for ambush. Yes you can use traps to lead off an ambush. But traps themselves are not the ambush. It's the following fire that is the ambush. You can set a trap and leave it (though not in SWG of course since they are thrown). If a unit is walking thru the woods and falls into that hole is that an ambush? I'd say no since there is no follow up.

  I'm not sure on how you are wanting traps to work. Looking at some of the info it appears you may be asking for the drop variety.

  And yes I agree with you that Sniping and Ambush are different.

  As you said in the original post. The names themselves are very important.

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Waste93 wrote:

  I disagree. Recon can fit under Survivalist, not really the other way around. The literal meaning of Recon is : a preliminary survey to gain information; especially : an exploratory military survey of enemy territory

  Neither stealth nor tracking are required for Recon. Though of course they are helpful. Which is why I see it as part of Survivalist and not the other way around. Nor is all Recon done in the wilderness. There is air recon, satalite recon, etc. Survivalist is a sufficiently broad term but it also is used to specifically refer to a wilderness setting.

As I said in the previous post, I can definitely see what you're saying about Survivalist fitting there instead.  The "Recon" idea that's being placed at the top is derived from Owen's "The Recon Unit" post, at least I think it is.  A great post which really pulls many of the ideas discussed in this forum together in a great way.

  As for ambush. Yes you can use traps to lead off an ambush. But traps themselves are not the ambush. It's the following fire that is the ambush. You can set a trap and leave it (though not in SWG of course since they are thrown). If a unit is walking thru the woods and falls into that hole is that an ambush? I'd say no since there is no follow up.

  I'm not sure on how you are wanting traps to work. Looking at some of the info it appears you may be asking for the drop variety.

There are a number of suggestions surrounding the ideas of adding new traps.  For many people the use of traps as a first attack, lure, or mez are interchangable.  Because we haven't gotten to working a group effort its tough to say exactly where the final document will take that aspect of the profession.

Owen's post on the possible "Recon" role of the Ranger profession really outlines this well.  Because Rangers use traps to control creature states (damage is pretty much null) the idea of suprising a target (possibly with a trap) that then has to deal with incoming fire as well as states such as stun, blind, dizzy, and even "slow" effects is what falls within this role of "ambushing."

The Ambush that's being described here is a combination of things.  It's the surprise of suddenly dealing with the enemy as well as having fallen victim to traps that might hinder your ability to respond.  This is all, of course, based around traps that would be PvP and PvE versatile.

Your description (from the previous post) of Ambush Specialist being "someone or a group hiding in the bush waiting to attack someone else." would be dead on what I'm looking for.  (I can't speak for the document yet but I think this is what we're moving towards.)  That, however, is extremely different from /ConcealShot and is why I made the distinction between Camo and /ConcealShot. 

  And yes I agree with you that Sniping and Ambush are different.

  As you said in the original post. The names themselves are very important.

Very true.  I think Ambush, though, that Ambush Specialist is a great way of putting it because that's what we're looking for out of that tree.

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