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Re: Droid decay proposal Version 0.3   [ Edited ]
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Epak
Jedi
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Epak

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I think that droids should decay just like weapons and armor, and that there should be repair kits that everyone can use (just like armor and weapons). The real question is what makes a droid decay, and at what rate.


A time-based decay equation seems logical as proposed. I like the idea of a droid decaying at a rate proportionate to its charge. If the droid is kept with a charge above 50%, then the decay rate is x. If the droid charge is below 50%, then the decay rate is 1.5x


Its hard to say what x is, but I think a frequently used droid should be replaced every 4 to 6 weeks (doctors that buff at starports... if you use a droid for a constant 3 or 4 hours a day. ). If you only use your droid occasionally, then it could last 4 to 6 months. This is no different than armor and weapons.


Message Edited by Epak on 02-22-2005 02:50 PM


kotea/wave

02-22-2005 02:42 PM  

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Re: Droid decay proposal Version 0.1
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Straker_Atrella
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Straker_Atrella
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Gron_DM wrote:



  • 24 hours use a day, (such as a buffbot) = 12 days
  • 12 hours use a day, = 18 days 
  • 6 hours a day = 30 days
  • 3 hours a day = 45 days
  • 1.5 hours a day = 60 days(2 months)
  • 1.5 hour every other day = 3 months (casual players fall more into this window)
  • Just pulling it out to get stuff out of a storage droid or craft a little a day = 6 months (aka max time droid functions)

This would be more to the scale i think is reasonable, but opinions will vary.  Thanks for putting up some numbers i think its important we get down to the nitty gritty and get a window on these specifics.




Honestly I like your numbers better Gron.  If somebody is using a droid for 6 hours every single day, it must be doing a lot for them.  Making money, or helping somehow.  Yours are based around 200 hours max if you used mine.  That would be 200 with repairs from kits.

There is still the problem of the other 3 or 4 droids that people only use like 10 minutes every few days.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Droid Vendor at Resurection near Theed on Naboo -5757 6222. Both carry a wide variety of maxed Droids, I also carry every type of Droid and Droid supply.

*Straker Atrella: Dark Jedi * Atrella's Wench: Master Droid Engineer / Artisan / Scout / Merchant * Dark Vortex: Ranger / Rifleman * Havana:Musician / Dancer / Image Design * Enigmatica : Doctor / Swordsman* CrazyEyes: Role playing BH.
02-22-2005 09:04 PM  

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Re: Droid decay proposal Version 0.3
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Qlint
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Qlint
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Didn't read through here, I just didn't feel like it, but Jenden's orginial post looks good to me.
 
One thing I would add as a symptom of decay. Droids with personality chips should start to gripe about there condition. I know people that would ignore most symptoms suggested, but if the droid suggests finding a droid engineer....

Qlint Iistwud (Pronounced Klint East would)
Master Artisan, Master Droid Engineer, Master Pilot
Hard Corps
02-23-2005 04:29 PM  

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Re: Droid decay proposal Version 0.3
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bluephoenix8406
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bluephoenix8406
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Jenden wrote:
Ok, here's the first version of a droid decay proposal that will hopefully make everyone happy. Please share your comments/suggestions and lets see if we can get something that everyone is happy with. Ideas for this proposal have been drawn from the various previous proposals on these boards, as well as my own ideas.

What is the goal of decay?
Ideally, decay will accomplish the following goals.

  • Improve the droid market on all servers for all play styles

  • Bring droid customers back to the DE

  • Not be a reason for people to not buy droids



  • How will decay be measured?
    In order for this proposal to be successful, a new integrity rating would need to be added to all droid frame's, chassis, and final deed's. Some droids will have more integrity than others (for example, Binary Load Lifters should last longer than R3's). I believe it would be better if the integrity of droids was not purely done on a higher-level = higher-integrity basis. Something like a MSE, which has very little moving/exposed parts should have a bit more integrity than something like a protocol droid which is a bit more delicate. Thats just something I thought might be interesting though, nothing vital to the plan. Not listing any integrity numbers here, but rough estimates as to time droids last will be included later


    When should droids decay?
    Ideally, there should be a number of factors that contribute to the gradual decay of droids. A general decay of 1 integrity point every x minutes the droid is out should be enough to ensure that every droid will eventually start to have some wear and tear. The decay on destruction should be kept as a means for speeding up the decay of combat droids (which should decay the fastest of all droids). Additionally, any time an astromech is in a ship that is destroyed, the droid should take some integrity loss.


    What effect does decay have on the droid?
    Decay should have a number of effects on the droid that progressively get worse as the droid gets further into a state of disrepair. Here is a list of possible ideas:

  • Decreased droid movement

  • Droid randomly "powers down" (stops working until stored/called)

  • One random stat (function) on the droid stops working (until stored/called again)

  • Batteries drain faster

  • Cosmetic effects (sparks, smoke, etc)



  • Again, not all of those need to be implemented, they're just some ideas.


    What happens when the droid's integrity reaches 0?
    Once a droid's integrity reaches 0, it is considered "disabled". Disabled droids may be called from the datapad, but cannot move. All modules in a disabled droid stop functioning (though items and data can still be removed from storage) and astromechs will not function in ships.


    How can a droid be repaired/maintained?
    A few new parts would need to be added to the profession for this part. First off, some kind of droid reconstruction kit would need to be implemented. This kit would be similar to BE vitality packs in that anyone can use them and they repair a droid's integrity (though they reduce the max integrity for the droid).
    Possibility for full repairs:
  • Droid refurbishment kits: Expensive kits that can completely repair a droid's vitality

  • Anti-Decay Kits: Allow users to keep one droid from decaying

  • Droid Refurbishment Center: Takes a droid deed and a disabled droid and coppies name/commands/color over

  • Droid Refurbishment Center: Can change modules and reduce decay

  • Droid Deconstruction: Can deconstruct a disabled droid into the adv. chassis version


  • How long should a droid last?
    This is largely up for debate, but my feeling on it is the average life span for a droid without any kind of repairs is 1 month (at this point the droid would still be useable, but all of the side effects from the low maintenance would make it very unreliable). If a user cares enough about his droid to keep up on the maintenance, I see a droid lasting 3-4 months. If they really like the droid and want to keep him around, the droid can last indefinately via the refurbishment kits.


    Conclusing
    Ok, lets look at our objectives again.


  • Improve the droid market on all servers for all play styles

  • By instituting this decay there will be an increase in droid sales to people who don't mind just replacing their droid and don't want to deal with keeping up with maintenance. There would be an increase in consumeable sales to the people interested in making their droid last as long as possible. There would also be a new market for customers that want their old droid refurbished. I think this should satisfy all play styles (not only for customers, but also for DE's).


  • Bring customers back to DE's

  • Customers will return to the DE in order to either get repair kits, have their droid refurbished, or buy a new droid. This should serve to be a good increase in traffic to DE shops (or emails/tells to backpack DE's)


  • Not be a reason for people to not buy droids

  • The decay should be slow enough that people don't have a problem replacing their droids, and people that have grown attached to their droids can have them refurbished.




    Ok, questions, comments, concerns, ideas, thoughts... lets hear em.

    Message Edited by Jenden on 02-17-2005 07:08 PM

    Message Edited by Jenden on 02-18-2005 11:07 AM

    Message Edited by Jenden on 02-19-2005 01:55 PM



    I agree with this but please add something that allows you to redeed a droid so that u can keep the droid if u have to many pets.

    My destiney is my own,
    I choose to be what I am,
    I am the warrior who does not die,
    Phoenix.

    Wing-Tsit Chong United Artisians League Warrant Officer I
    Master Artisian,Ex-Master Marksman x/x/4/4,Medic (until i drop it),Droid Enginer 3/3/3/4,Alliance pilot 2/2/2/2
    02-23-2005 05:04 PM  

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    Re: Droid decay proposal Version 0.1
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    bluephoenix8406
    SWG Petty Officer
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    bluephoenix8406
    PA: Wing-Tsit Chong - United Artisians League
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    jefmes wrote:


    Jonthalas wrote:

    While we are on new theories, let me add in some "recycled" ideas from current in-game metrics that might go towards the solution of decay and repeat business:

    Droids are like Ships

    • DEs should be able to swap in/out modules within droids.  If Jedi can do it with lightsabers, why can't DEs?  Naturally, only DEs could change out modules, and you should only be able to change out modules you can create (i.e., a novice DE shouldn't be able to mess with a Level 6 Med Module).  Obviously, there are some game metrics with that rule, but not written in silicon at this point.    Still could offer the ability to switch out modules to the end-gamer in similiar fashion to the ship station.   Why couldn't there be a DE station and model droid interfaces (no relation to ship droid interfaces) in the same process as ships?

    Droids are like Lightsabers

    • Modules should have uses or condition on them, just like crystals.   Using the uses model, each time a modules function is activated (combat, med healing, harvesting, etc) a use count is depleted. 
    • Modules could have base uses wiht Quality experimentation (something to experiment with besides Effectiveness) could be used to generate higher uses within the specific module.  (Give us 12 pt DEs something to do).

    Droids are like Buildings

    • Allow Master DEs to place Droid Repair Centers (in similiar fashion to Doctors, Entertainers, Musicians, etc) that allow players to take droids for the proverbial "oil bath" (more on that below)

    Droids are like Pets

    • If a module use count reaches 0, the droids overall vitality  is reduced.  (In the same model a pets' vitality is reduced when it dies and auto-stores instead of being revived).
    • Droid Repair Kits could then be used to return vitality to the droid (In the same model a pets' vitality packs)
    • Could also tie into Repair Kit logic (similiar to clothing, weapon, armor)  that if the player attempts a repair on the vitality of the droid, there is a chance of damaging it or disabling it altogether

    Droids are like Vehicles

    • Disabled droids could be restored at the Droid Repair Center (in game terms - similiar to the parking garage logic) where, for a fee a player could restore the droid chassis.  

    Droids are like Players

    • Another possible method of repairing droid vitality damage would be to let the droid heal naturally by allowing the player to put the droid into a locker or compartment at the Droid Repair Center that only the player can open (logically - transferring the droid from the datapad of the player to the datapad of the building) and have the droid stay for repairs while the player continues to play.   The player could be emailed when the droid is done "cooking" and vitality is restored.

    Droids in Summary

    These models of decay and economics could allow for several game economics to change in the following manner:

    • Allow DEs to offer more module and chasis sales, thereby increasing shop business flow and repeat customers
    • Give DEs more control over the droids they make in creation and after-market management.
    • Give DEs more experimentation power along the lines of other classes (doctors, weaponsmiths, etc)
    • Use in-game processes that players are used to in other areas and try to help reduce much of the "how does this work" questioning that plagues our profession.

    Finally, by trying to incorporate in-game mechanisms that are already used (and programmed), it might (emphasize - MIGHT) help the developers revamp our profession quicker and sooner because they do not have to re-invent the wheel, per se.

    Overall, I like the ideas that have been presented and think we are well on the track to a better profession.

    Onward and upwards - and stay tuned true-believers.....the best is yet to come.

    Respectively,




    Some ideas here very similar to things that have been talked about, but this is a GREAT brief write-up on combining them in a simple list. I would go 100% for everything in this post. Nice job!

    Great Post! My idea is

     1. Put a limit on how many players must be in a player city to have a Droid Repair Center.
     2. Set a fee that you pay like maintance on your house.

    and more when i can brain storm them up

    My destiney is my own,
    I choose to be what I am,
    I am the warrior who does not die,
    Phoenix.

    Wing-Tsit Chong United Artisians League Warrant Officer I
    Master Artisian,Ex-Master Marksman x/x/4/4,Medic (until i drop it),Droid Enginer 3/3/3/4,Alliance pilot 2/2/2/2
    02-23-2005 05:12 PM  

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    Re: Droid decay proposal Version 0.3
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    DarkY0da
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    I see you mention 1 month. But what does that mean? 40-80 hours for a droid on average? With likely high end well made droids lasting 100-120?

    Yes I think droids should decay. I think the modules in a droid should affect its decay rate in some manner. With certain modules increasing the decay rate just by what they do and are used for. (But like my entertainer droids took me forever to save up and buy. I would hate to see a droid like that go really quickly just because a lot of ents might not be able to replace it right away when it blows up.)

    I also think the customizing kits for droids should help fight off decay.(as if a droid is taken care of and tweaked to be unique there is the assumption that it is being taken care of)

    As far as repair. I think a droid at 0 should blow up. 80-100% range a repair wouldn't affect its overall integrate. But like 50-79% should weaken it some. (So that like the max you could repair the decay would be less then what it was at max. And like 1-49% should weaken it even more.
    So for example you have a droid that you let get down to 10% and get it repaired. It goes up to 80%... you let it go 53% and get it repaired up to 70% so on and so forth.

    Oh-Orb Rizo Twi'lek
    Just hanging out... watching with interest what changes do or don't happen.

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    03-03-2005 01:19 PM  

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    Re: Droid decay proposal Version 0.3
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    DigitalOne
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    If we could go back to the previous debate, I have a few ideas that might be relevant.
     
    I really like the idea about the droid "dipping" center. I think this has a lot of merit. Here is what i would like to add to the system.
     
    1, Differentiate between combat and utility droids. Face it, some droids are disposable. If you look at episode 1, it wont take you long to figure out that soldier droids where meant to be cheap and expendable. Droids meant to be combat capable should simply be allowed to decay and be replaced, probots simply aren’t that cute. This would give us one aspect of the market where are sales are truly renewable. R units should be made non-combat capable again, their main role is as utility anyway. Never saw R2-D2 going at a stromtrooper with his buzz saw anyway.
     
    2, Decay should work similar to vehicles, but the number scale should be increased, and be able to go two weeks to a month without repair and frequent use. Who ever this idea was, kudos we should work with this model.
     
    3, Instead of having a DE involved in the refurbishment process, simply have DE made Regents involved. (I know if I was a droid user, I wouldn’t want to wait hours in a DRC waiting for a stupid DE to show up, neither would I as a DE want to spend hours in a DRC.) I would recommend having craft-able "Droid oil bath" and "Spare droid parts" be necessary to take advantage of the droid repair machine in the DRC. These would be one time use, and valuable enough to make them profitable. Those who are attached to their droid could chose to do continuously by doing so there would not be permanent decay, excluding combat droids. Those who do not can simply buy a new droid.  We shouldn’t get hung up on the belief that everybody sees their droids are pets.  We need to take a pragmatic view, but somehow implement some RP features.
    4, Also, add chassis for each droid, have experimentation a factor on each of the droid chassis, and final deed. It never made sense for experimentation to occur on subcomponents, I wrote a detailed case against subcomponent experimentation, which you should search if you have the time.
    5, Drop the idea of refurbishment kits, I think this complicates the issue a little bit, at least for now because we are not quite sure what role they should play.
    Basically treating droids like vehicles is a good idea, its simple, and effective; make it matter of numbers. I don’t think droids should have glitches or break down when they get worn, this would be iffy programming, and could possibly lead to bugs. I doubt the RP factor will exceed the annoyance factor. They should have sparks and smoke coming out of them just like vehicles. Also they should only decay with use, if a droid is stored it wouldn’t make much sense for it to take wear, or at least it should take wear very very slowly.
    I sincerely concur that DE’s personal droids should not take wear. This is a hard biz, we have a perk due. Even journalists get into museums free, and they’re so underpaid.
    Money sinks are always a good thing when it comes to the game, there is way to much money being created as it is.
    We have to look at this game as one big economy, trying to model our plans after personal and cute role-playing notions are the wrong approach. What this is all about is the circulation of goods and capitol. The ability to work within the greater system is the goal, rather than being able to fit within the context of our subjective vision.
    What we should want first is the renewed ability to make money, its all about circulation and exchange. Greed helps the system; the more you want the more wealth will flow. Hording cash is good to, since there are not enough money sinks to curb inflation, so making tons of cash and holding onto it effectively removes it from the system, and balances the currency’s value in relation to material products and services.
    Of course everyone can play like they want, and you don’t have to be a capitalist mogul to play well. You can play outside the system, but know as far as development goes, you have to pay respect to the economy, or else it’ll be incongruent with the way things are and the community will continue to suffer.
    03-03-2005 11:38 PM  

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    Re: Droid decay proposal Version 0.3
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    11710
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    I think it would be an awsome idea for droids to take on wear and tear. Not just because im broke, but it would make sense because all mechanical things stop working with time. And I would also like to see the subcomponents put into droids affect its integrity and the duration of its components. Ex: If you put a brain with low heat shielding the droid stops working or its face explodes or something untill it is stored and called.

    Lobus
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    03-05-2005 02:03 PM  

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    Re: Droid decay proposal Version 0.3
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    DigitalOne
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    Trust me, subcomponent experementation = more trouble than its worth.
     
    http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=droid_engineer&message.id=103429&highlight=the+case+against+subcomponent+experementation#M103429
     
    03-06-2005 12:06 AM  

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    Re: Droid decay proposal Version 0.3
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    Naurbrannon
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    Proposal:

    I think droids should not be able to heal themselves without an autorepair module

    example: While fighting I get my probot droid killed, I store it on my datapad and the day after when I call it back it's full health again

    I think damage should be repaired only by autorepair modules, repair modules and repair kits,
    wounds only by reconstruction kits,
    no autoheal while time passes

    I think that would really greatly increase repair kits sells

    Ikiop on Infinity, Master Droid Engineer, tier 4 pilor and novice carabineer, never used a macro, never been AFK
    03-08-2005 04:21 AM  

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    Re: Droid decay proposal Version 0.1
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    Blatz
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    Okay my 2 cents worth as a long time DE: I would support droid decay only for combat situations where some form of physical damage is invloved, not unlike the current armor model.  Droids in the Star Wars universe are supposed to last a long time.  Certainly a lifetime or more, and to have them fall apart after 2 or 3 months is a bit silly.  Hell even my Chevrolet will last longer than that.  I for one would not even bother with owning a droid if that is the case, as this game is already too time consuming without having to replace my droids after emptying them out and finding someone to make yet another one.  (Even if that someone is me)
     
    Combat droids could be made stonger if the decay was the price to be paid.  This would address the current useless nature of combat droids in general and provide a new revenue stream for most DE's.
     
    Again, this is just one DE's opinion,
     
     
     

    |Blatz Metal Works|
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    03-08-2005 11:54 AM  

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    Re: Droid decay proposal Version 0.1
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    Drashk
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    Blatz wrote:
    Droids in the Star Wars universe are supposed to last a long time.  Certainly a lifetime or more, and to have them fall apart after 2 or 3 months is a bit silly.  Hell even my Chevrolet will last longer than that.  I for one would not even bother with owning a droid if that is the case, as this game is already too time consuming without having to replace my droids after emptying them out and finding someone to make yet another one.  (Even if that someone is me)

    What would you consider a lifetime, in a MMORPG, that is based upon a player economy?
     
    A lifetime is a very subjective thing, when using it in the context of a virtual world, where most people do not survive the entire life cycle of a MMORPG. SWG will more then likely have a shelf life of 5-7 years. From a 'realistic' perspective, each time the sun rises and sets, a day passes. How many day cycles pass on the server, in any given 24 hour period of time, in real life? How many years old are some characters, that have been around since day one, errrr day two, of the servers being launched? Much like there is a way to convert a dogs life span to human years, so must we consider the conversion of our characters life time in game years. We also have to condsider that even if you aren't actually logged into the game, your character can still be considered persistent, due to the effect that it has on its world environment, such as houses that you have placed, etc.
     
    One month of real life time in SWG is close to, if not more then, 1 year of game time, though there isn't any actual Star Wars Universe timeline being followed.
     
    Something else to consider, when trying to compare droids in SWG and droids in the Star Wars Universe - The droids mentioned in the movies, books, and other reference material are just like your character. They are the heros. (here I go again with the heros speech ) Heros are supposed to fight the good fight and live to see another day. The droids that we own are not the heros. They are just another set of NPCs that disappear and are never heard of again, when the credits roll. They don't have their names listed anywhere in the movies, because they are the extras that fill a scene.
     
    Just a few thoughts to mull over.



    Making SWG more Star Warsy. One droid at a time.
    03-08-2005 05:20 PM  

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    Re: Droid decay proposal Version 0.1
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    TheRealTK421
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    Drashk wrote:

    Blatz wrote:
    Droids in the Star Wars universe are supposed to last a long time.  Certainly a lifetime or more, and to have them fall apart after 2 or 3 months is a bit silly.  Hell even my Chevrolet will last longer than that.  I for one would not even bother with owning a droid if that is the case, as this game is already too time consuming without having to replace my droids after emptying them out and finding someone to make yet another one.  (Even if that someone is me)

    What would you consider a lifetime, in a MMORPG, that is based upon a player economy?


    For an individual droid-buyer, it's till the fun runs out.


    /bow

    Respectfully,

    TheRealTK421 a.k.a. "Doughbacca"
    SWG DE Correspondent
    Co-Founding member of Ahazi DENet & SWG DEA (Droid Engineer Association)
    "I think all right-thinking people in this country are sick and tired of being told that ordinary, decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. ...I'm certainly not. And I'm sick and tired of being told that I am."

    03-08-2005 07:36 PM  

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    Re: Droid decay proposal Version 0.1
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    Naurbrannon
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    Blatz wrote:
     Droids in the Star Wars universe are supposed to last a long time. 
     



    They are supposed to last long with manteniance, C-3PO needed an oil bath after few days on tatooine

    Ikiop on Infinity, Master Droid Engineer, tier 4 pilor and novice carabineer, never used a macro, never been AFK
    03-09-2005 11:54 AM  

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    Re: Droid decay proposal Version 0.1
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    Anosa
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    yes please make them decay i cant sell any droid to anyone, they all have some.


    Conan O'Brien= Funniest guy on earth

    Anosa
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    03-24-2005 04:15 AM

     

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