Someone finds an "experimental type 6 jawa ion disruptor"
Someone reverse engineers the weapon. The attempt goes poorly and all that was recovered were 500 rounds of "ionized particle ammunition:
Someone else can then "load" the ammunition into a weapon they already have to give it +20% electric damage
Here's another possible scenario:
Someone finds an "advanced non-biological symphonoid membrane malfunction contraborator" on a droid
Someone happens to have spent several expertise points to gain advanced reverse engineering abilities
Someone reverse engineers the contraborator, gets an amazing reverse engineering success and manages to extract the uncommon "rocket booster" component
Someone uses the rocket booster component to craft an "advanced propulsion kit"
Someone uses the advanced propulstion kit to increase the travel speed on their swoop bike for a couple of hours (which happens to run the swoop down a little faster due to the stress on the components caused by the propulsion kit)
There are many ways to create an economy for crafters without decay and without making everything crafted better than everything looted. Crafters want useful and wanted goods, adventurers want useful loot drops. Both can be had.
And for chefs we could RE our dunkin donuts
I really don't like that system. We become enhancers rather than crafters. I preffer schematic+component system.
Someone finds an "experimental type 6 jawa ion disruptor"
Someone reverse engineers the weapon. The attempt goes poorly and all that was recovered were 500 rounds of "ionized particle ammunition:
Someone else can then "load" the ammunition into a weapon they already have to give it +20% electric damage
Here's another possible scenario:
Someone finds an "advanced non-biological symphonoid membrane malfunction contraborator" on a droid
Someone happens to have spent several expertise points to gain advanced reverse engineering abilities
Someone reverse engineers the contraborator, gets an amazing reverse engineering success and manages to extract the uncommon "rocket booster" component
Someone uses the rocket booster component to craft an "advanced propulsion kit"
Someone uses the advanced propulstion kit to increase the travel speed on their swoop bike for a couple of hours (which happens to run the swoop down a little faster due to the stress on the components caused by the propulsion kit)
There are many ways to create an economy for crafters without decay and without making everything crafted better than everything looted. Crafters want useful and wanted goods, adventurers want useful loot drops. Both can be had.
Both are clever ideas. However keep in mind that people (I dare say all of the crafters that were here pre-cu) liked the fact that crafting was challenging. People liked the fact that it was impossible to make an item with capped stats. People liked the fact that they, given the proper items, skills and stats could make something much better than almost any looted item.
Crafting is pretty much dead right now with the exception of shipwright. I think if you examine the reasons for that and address those reason you can gain back what was the absolute best crafting system ever.
I'm not asking for pre-cu or anything like that. I'm just saying that the level of "fun" if you will that existed then is long since gone. I was an AS since Dec '03. I even remained an AS after the CU. When and why did I quit? I quit crafting the first time I could make "perfect" armor with less than perfect resources. That just sucked all of the fun out of it for me, and I think many others as well.
When you say "without making everything crafted better than everything looted" it makes me think you are seeing this as a one or the other deal. Crafted items should be better than almost all looted items however. The player dependencies require it. Otherwise crafters are nothing more than a player controlled NPC performing RE's for people.
Monroe - Medic (formerly Kiom) Xana - Jedi Tarantella - Structures Cebak - Entertainer
Someone finds an "experimental type 6 jawa ion disruptor"
Someone reverse engineers the weapon. The attempt goes poorly and all that was recovered were 500 rounds of "ionized particle ammunition:
Someone else can then "load" the ammunition into a weapon they already have to give it +20% electric damage
That Someone then verbally abuses the Crafter who did the reverse engineering, complaining that said Crafter meant to destroy the up3rl337 i0n d1srupt0r!!1!1111! That someone then demands repayment from Crafter for damages incurred. Crafter attempts to explain about random rolls of the dice, but Someone doesn't make any attempt at understanding, and spends the next hour sending Crafter hate tells and spamming "Crafter cheats! Don't ever go to Crafter!. Crafter stole my up3r l337 d1srupt0r and gave me back worthless ammunition instead!"
that one made me smile... I think I can see some persons name in it... his name ending with 'rebel'.a kill-loot-rinse-repeat PvP kinda person...
Here's another possible scenario:
Someone finds an "advanced non-biological symphonoid membrane malfunction contraborator" on a droid
Someone happens to have spent several expertise points to gain advanced reverse engineering abilities
Someone reverse engineers the contraborator, gets an amazing reverse engineering success and manages to extract the uncommon "rocket booster" component
Someone uses the rocket booster component to craft an "advanced propulsion kit"
Someone uses the advanced propulstion kit to increase the travel speed on their swoop bike for a couple of hours (which happens to run the swoop down a little faster due to the stress on the components caused by the propulsion kit)
In this scenario we can assume that both Crafter and Someone know that the rocket booster component is rare and valuable. Crafter uses the component to build the propulsion kit and prepares to trade it back to Someone and names the price for the RE and Crafting process. Someone then begins to complain that "I looted that contraborator and you have no right to charge me for it! I already did all the work in getting teh up3r loot and it's mine!" At this point, Crafter becomes the enemy whether insisting upon and receiving payment or keeping the propulsion kit. Either way it will lead to Crafter receiving hate tells from Someone and Someone publicly spamming how Crafter cheated them.
You forget the other scenario, where the somebody who looted it uses it only for his own alt crafter, because he doesnt want to be relying on others. Or even so, that his trader alt just puts it up for millions of credits, that crafter will have to raise there prices dramatically to get it in the first place and make any profit afterwards.
There are many ways to create an economy for crafters without decay and without making everything crafted better than everything looted. Crafters want useful and wanted goods, adventurers want useful loot drops. Both can be had.
These may be ways to attempt to create an economy for Crafters without decay, but all they will do with this player base at this time in SWG's life is make Crafters more abused than they ever have been before.
First they will be a "gate" to the Combatants content (can't you hear the whines of: "I couldn't find a crafter on when I was on!" and "There aren't any crafters on my server." ?) Lol... Well good for them.I heard them whine already about the Entertainers missing (someone needing an ID and had been looking for hours...) If my trader would be on, I'll probably only do work for the guild and nobody else, because it's no use anymore. Guild members bring stuff, and then I can work it out and return stuff. /shrugs...
Poor noobs, won't find anything anymore on the vendors/bazaar. It must be all lootable now.
Second, if they "fail" or perform poorly on an RE attempt, Crafters will be accused of destroying the loot or at least of keeping good loot for themselves and giving the Combatant back inferior goods. Got a good point there But then again, I'm in a guild, of which the majority understood and still think decay would be needed to bring economy back in check. Lucky me, poor others.
Third, if they have a great success and perform well on an RE attempt, Crafters will be accused of price gouging on the returned item, because the Combatants won't want to have to "pay for" an item twice (once in the time spent killing NPCs and looting the item, and the second in credits when the Crafter trades it back). Forgetting in the process that they get plenty of XP, credits and other goodies while a crafter can't. I'd say basic price for re-ing is amount X. If it's bad, then it's bad. If it's goed, then another X is needed. Is it an excellent re-ing, then tripple X is required. /shrug If they don't like it, then make a trader yourself. But wait, most of them have done that already... Remember, this isn't an MMORPG anymore.
All around this system is a poor solution to the problems Crafters face with the current trend of making looted items better than craftable ones.
Just "adding" boosters isn't crafitn. It's jsut making more consumables. And behold, that's the Chef (Domestic) already. What are their main income from sales? I think about 8 products or so.
Someone finds an "experimental type 6 jawa ion disruptor"
Someone reverse engineers the weapon. The attempt goes poorly and all that was recovered were 500 rounds of "ionized particle ammunition:
Someone else can then "load" the ammunition into a weapon they already have to give it +20% electric damage
Here's another possible scenario:
Someone finds an "advanced non-biological symphonoid membrane malfunction contraborator" on a droid
Someone happens to have spent several expertise points to gain advanced reverse engineering abilities
Someone reverse engineers the contraborator, gets an amazing reverse engineering success and manages to extract the uncommon "rocket booster" component
Someone uses the rocket booster component to craft an "advanced propulsion kit"
Someone uses the advanced propulstion kit to increase the travel speed on their swoop bike for a couple of hours (which happens to run the swoop down a little faster due to the stress on the components caused by the propulsion kit)
There are many ways to create an economy for crafters without decay and without making everything crafted better than everything looted. Crafters want useful and wanted goods, adventurers want useful loot drops. Both can be had.
I'm sorry, but that isn't crafting, thats reverse engineering. Completely different aspect of the game. If on the other hand you would bring back craftable weapon powerups (that we had before) that would be crafting. Even if there are (rare) loot drops that do the job better for a shorter duration.
There might be people who like it, but i prefer to use components i build myself, instead of running after the people who might loot one (and pay for it).
And one more thing, instead of adding item after item please make sure the existing ones work and have a purpose. For example, what is the point of the basic BLL (Binary Load Lifter, Droid engineer)? It has no module slots. What is the point of the stimpack dispenser mod? Nobody has the skill (medic 0002 if i remember correct) nor the stimpacks to load it.
Someone finds an "experimental type 6 jawa ion disruptor"
Someone reverse engineers the weapon. The attempt goes poorly and all that was recovered were 500 rounds of "ionized particle ammunition:
Someone else can then "load" the ammunition into a weapon they already have to give it +20% electric damage
Here's another possible scenario:
Someone finds an "advanced non-biological symphonoid membrane malfunction contraborator" on a droid
Someone happens to have spent several expertise points to gain advanced reverse engineering abilities
Someone reverse engineers the contraborator, gets an amazing reverse engineering success and manages to extract the uncommon "rocket booster" component
Someone uses the rocket booster component to craft an "advanced propulsion kit"
Someone uses the advanced propulstion kit to increase the travel speed on their swoop bike for a couple of hours (which happens to run the swoop down a little faster due to the stress on the components caused by the propulsion kit)
There are many ways to create an economy for crafters without decay and without making everything crafted better than everything looted. Crafters want useful and wanted goods, adventurers want useful loot drops. Both can be had.
And for chefs we could RE our dunkin donuts
I really don't like that system. We become enhancersenchanters rather than crafters. I preffer schematic+component system.
Oh.. and decay.
Fixed the terminology for you We all know where it's coming from, that big cash flow success.
It's simple,I'll wait until the traders revamp hits the test center,and I'll wait to see what traders think of it,and if there is decay or not,if we don't get decay back,and traders become useless RE monkeys,or turn into a second expertise line everyone can get,or anything like this,you can count two accounts cancelled to NEVER return.
Mark my words, this is the end of the CRAFTING era in SWG.
It will end the crafting era in SWG where crafters make only marginally wanted goods and are in constant opposition with the PvE game. In the new era these communities will combine in a symbiotic and mutually beneficial ecology.
Why not save yourself all the trouble, and expand the automagic gon-dar cube from diable: throw in everything you need, press a button and voila, you have a swoop, or a component, or a building, whatever.
Crafting isn't changing. We're adding mechanics, not removing existing ones. The entire crafting process will become more intricate and require more overall skill in not only operating a crafting tool but also working the market. Real merchandising, marketing and relationship building skills will be required.
You still MISS the point why people want to be CRAFTERS:
- the crafting game of getting the best items.
This might be called a monopoly by some. Nobody likes a monopoly except for the people in control of it.
- resources
Resources aren't changing. In fact, with this system you are being given an entirely new tier of resources. Essentially, we've taken the concept of the Krayt tissue mechanic (that most people seem to have enjoyed) and have applied it to potentially the entire crafting assortment (instead of just for T21s). These new resources (in the form of reverse engineered sub-components) will be more difficult to get. You will need to harvest them from players (if you're a crafter), not the game world. This will lead to intricate nets of player interdependency.
- making unique products having an edge
Depending on your reverse engineering expertise, you might get better or worse components. Then you use those components for crafting. Depending on your crafting skills (as per normal) you might have better or worse end objects.
- selling their quality wares at reasonable prices
The market will determine what's reasonable.
But it's NOT about: - 1 time sales only
Which is were many crafters stand at this point. The new system/craftables will alleviate this issue.
- cookie cutter reverse engineering based on CHANCE (if I wanted that, I'd start gambling, and probably make more money in RL then in game)
There is no more chance involved than in the crafting process itself. You can influence the outcome of reverse engineering attempts through expertise, just like you can influence the outcome of the crafting process with experimentation points.
- one fits all (in form of resources, where it does not matter what you put together, because the end product is already fixed)
To reiterate - crafting isn't changing. We're adding new schematics and new resources/sub components plus a mechanic for getting the new resources/sub components.
"There are many ways to create an economy for crafters without decay and without making everything crafted better than everything looted. Crafters want useful and wanted goods, adventurers want useful loot drops. Both can be had."
I am not a crafter and this SUCKS.
Please tell me what is wrong with an idea something like this:
1) crafted weapons are better than looted (except some special items perhaps) - not my a huge margin, but better 2) crafted items decay, looted items do not 3) you can add powerups to weapons/armor (like what you were just talking about) either looted or crafted. However powerups cause crafted items to decay faster AND cause looted items to decay (at a lesser rate than crafted).
This puts control of if items get decay in control of the user. There is motivation to use crafted as it has better stats, but there is the disadvantage of decay. There is the motivation to improve items via powerups, but there is the disadvantage of decay.
Reverse engineering is ok as PART of crafter, but basing the whole thing so that crafters are some sort of monkey sucks. When I did play a crafter (we BE), the challenge of making quality items was the most fun I have had in game (yes, even next to sitting in a camp).
(you can ignore the next part, as it is more of a rant, if you like).
You will lose a lot of crafters and combatants over this. Some of us HATE looted items. Also some of use feel that crafters got screwed over big time with the NGE. I still cannot fathom how you copuld 100% alter the game but not updated it for a year for crafters, leaving them totally broken.
I do not come unprepared with ideas on a viable solution, however. (please see to my initial reply to Helios)
I believe the best possible solution is to do three things.
Return to a modified system of what we had in the past. Give all craftable items a form of socket (like clothing and armor) and then return skill enhancing attachments to the loot tables.
Add in an experimentation system that allows Crafters to experiment for more sockets on a particular item, rather than randomly assigning numbers of sockets to the crafted item.
Return item decay, but return repair kits for all items that will restore items to full condition if repaired between 76%-99%, to 75% condition if repaired between 51% and 74%, to 50% condition if repaired between 26% and 49%, and 25% if repaired between 1% and 24%. Item would become unusable upon reaching 0 condition.
Returning to a socket/SEA system and making all craftable items socketable while returning SEAs to circulation will make it so Crafters are once again useful and no Combatants feel the need to run around in looted clown suits with 2nd-hand blasters they've pried out of corpses' hands. This also solves the problem of Crafters being a "gate" to Combatant content like they are with the RE system, since the Combatant can pick up new items at a vendor anytime, rather than having to catch the Crafter online and not busy.
Allowing Crafters to experiment for more sockets rather than causing socketing to be random (like it is now) makes sense if the socketing/SEA system is returned to play.
The reason item decay was so unpopular was that there was so much confusion about the process. No one really had more than a good guess of how much better a crafter could repair an item than the owner. No one knew why 100% repair kits sometimes failed to make complete repairs. The problem was the system was too obscure and random, especially for the current playerbase. With the system described above, repairs are consistent, but there is still a penalty for people who don't properly maintain their equipment. But there is never a surprise to how the repair will turn out--items will never just fall apart in the owners' hands unless they have been criminally negligent in their care for those items.
Message Edited by mooncrane on 11-18-200608:56 AM
gggggggggggWhat's next for Crafters? ggggggggggg
ggPerhaps CL90 raiders spawn when we click on our factories? gg
(heck, that might beat the factory spam bug that keeps cropping up! )
"I agree but who wants to reverse engeere things? That make us pay combat player for loot. arnt we supost to be sellling things to them?"
That means everything is one way, only crafters make money. Also given that you won't be selling items to your combat alt I'd say that argument id totally bogus.
I agree 100% with crafters being meaningful, but this argument is one that pisses off the rest of the players. WHat you just said is "only crafters should make money", wether you intended to say that or not.
I hear alot of complaints so far about the trader patch. Would you rather we keep the current system? We really have no idea how craftin gis going to be until the patch comes out, and even after that I am sure there is gonna be updates to it down the line. The system they are talking about can have its advantages, and may have some disadvantages. We are just going to have to wait and see.
Personally I welcome the new changes. Right now my Structure trader is unemployed. If the patch gives him a new job, I am very greatfull. If it doesnt, then i'll keep him as a trader until my city gets built how my guild wants it, then I change professions. Once again, I "we" are just going to have to wait and see what happens.
0smspiff0 wrote: "I agree but who wants to reverse engeere things? That make us pay combat player for loot. arnt we supost to be sellling things to them?"
That means everything is one way, only crafters make money. Also given that you won't be selling items to your combat alt I'd say that argument id totally bogus.
I agree 100% with crafters being meaningful, but this argument is one that pisses off the rest of the players. WHat you just said is "only crafters should make money", wether you intended to say that or not.
You miss the point here...
As some people keep repeating themselves: "crafters are greedy". But they keep failing to realize WHY:
It was because of the looted items and WILL be again that combatants sold to the crafters. However, with decay in check, both combat and crafters had regular basis of interaction (krayt tissues for example)...
Now, it becomes an rev-engineering chance game, items only retreived by combatatns, and can be made to other things by traders.
I hear the complaints already: "Why the hell is that swoop-speed-power-up so expensive? You greedy Trader!"
forgetting the base of the price comes from the damn rev-engineered thing the trader had to buy from the Combatant in the first place.
Someone finds an "experimental type 6 jawa ion disruptor"
Someone reverse engineers the weapon. The attempt goes poorly and all that was recovered were 500 rounds of "ionized particle ammunition:
Someone else can then "load" the ammunition into a weapon they already have to give it +20% electric damage
Here's another possible scenario:
Someone finds an "advanced non-biological symphonoid membrane malfunction contraborator" on a droid
Someone happens to have spent several expertise points to gain advanced reverse engineering abilities
Someone reverse engineers the contraborator, gets an amazing reverse engineering success and manages to extract the uncommon "rocket booster" component
Someone uses the rocket booster component to craft an "advanced propulsion kit"
Someone uses the advanced propulstion kit to increase the travel speed on their swoop bike for a couple of hours (which happens to run the swoop down a little faster due to the stress on the components caused by the propulsion kit)
There are many ways to create an economy for crafters without decay and without making everything crafted better than everything looted. Crafters want useful and wanted goods, adventurers want useful loot drops. Both can be had.
"advanced non-biological symphonoid membrane malfunction contraborator" -- that is so funny, you almost sound like C3PO. Now all you have to do is give us the odds associated with finding one of these..."things"...and you'll sound exactly like C3PO.
Mark my words, this is the end of the CRAFTING era in SWG.
It will end the crafting era in SWG where crafters make only marginally wanted goods and are in constant opposition with the PvE game. In the new era these communities will combine in a symbiotic and mutually beneficial ecology.
Why not save yourself all the trouble, and expand the automagic gon-dar cube from diable: throw in everything you need, press a button and voila, you have a swoop, or a component, or a building, whatever.
Crafting isn't changing. We're adding mechanics, not removing existing ones. The entire crafting process will become more intricate and require more overall skill in not only operating a crafting tool but also working the market. Real merchandising, marketing and relationship building skills will be required.
You still MISS the point why people want to be CRAFTERS:
- the crafting game of getting the best items.
This might be called a monopoly by some. Nobody likes a monopoly except for the people in control of it.
- resources
Resources aren't changing. In fact, with this system you are being given an entirely new tier of resources. Essentially, we've taken the concept of the Krayt tissue mechanic (that most people seem to have enjoyed) and have applied it to potentially the entire crafting assortment (instead of just for T21s). These new resources (in the form of reverse engineered sub-components) will be more difficult to get. You will need to harvest them from players (if you're a crafter), not the game world. This will lead to intricate nets of player interdependency.
- making unique products having an edge
Depending on your reverse engineering expertise, you might get better or worse components. Then you use those components for crafting. Depending on your crafting skills (as per normal) you might have better or worse end objects.
- selling their quality wares at reasonable prices
The market will determine what's reasonable.
But it's NOT about: - 1 time sales only
Which is were many crafters stand at this point. The new system/craftables will alleviate this issue.
- cookie cutter reverse engineering based on CHANCE (if I wanted that, I'd start gambling, and probably make more money in RL then in game)
There is no more chance involved than in the crafting process itself. You can influence the outcome of reverse engineering attempts through expertise, just like you can influence the outcome of the crafting process with experimentation points.
- one fits all (in form of resources, where it does not matter what you put together, because the end product is already fixed)
To reiterate - crafting isn't changing. We're adding new schematics and new resources/sub components plus a mechanic for getting the new resources/sub components.
Why cant this mean doing this:
What about the idea to make the base item take decay, while letting you pull the stats/mods out of the item to put in a newly created base item?
What about the idea of letting a crafter fully repair an item at any time, unless the item has 0 condition, in which the above situation could happen if so?
Mark my words, this is the end of the CRAFTING era in SWG.
It will end the crafting era in SWG where crafters make only marginally wanted goods and are in constant opposition with the PvE game. In the new era these communities will combine in a symbiotic and mutually beneficial ecology.
Why not save yourself all the trouble, and expand the automagic gon-dar cube from diable: throw in everything you need, press a button and voila, you have a swoop, or a component, or a building, whatever.
Crafting isn't changing. We're adding mechanics, not removing existing ones. The entire crafting process will become more intricate and require more overall skill in not only operating a crafting tool but also working the market. Real merchandising, marketing and relationship building skills will be required.
You still MISS the point why people want to be CRAFTERS:
- the crafting game of getting the best items.
This might be called a monopoly by some. Nobody likes a monopoly except for the people in control of it.
- resources
Resources aren't changing. In fact, with this system you are being given an entirely new tier of resources. Essentially, we've taken the concept of the Krayt tissue mechanic (that most people seem to have enjoyed) and have applied it to potentially the entire crafting assortment (instead of just for T21s). These new resources (in the form of reverse engineered sub-components) will be more difficult to get. You will need to harvest them from players (if you're a crafter), not the game world. This will lead to intricate nets of player interdependency.
- making unique products having an edge
Depending on your reverse engineering expertise, you might get better or worse components. Then you use those components for crafting. Depending on your crafting skills (as per normal) you might have better or worse end objects.
- selling their quality wares at reasonable prices
The market will determine what's reasonable.
But it's NOT about: - 1 time sales only
Which is were many crafters stand at this point. The new system/craftables will alleviate this issue.
- cookie cutter reverse engineering based on CHANCE (if I wanted that, I'd start gambling, and probably make more money in RL then in game)
There is no more chance involved than in the crafting process itself. You can influence the outcome of reverse engineering attempts through expertise, just like you can influence the outcome of the crafting process with experimentation points.
- one fits all (in form of resources, where it does not matter what you put together, because the end product is already fixed)
To reiterate - crafting isn't changing. We're adding new schematics and new resources/sub components plus a mechanic for getting the new resources/sub components.
/glareathelios
Who said you could /pimpslap him?
Good post though and thanks for the info, I forone am looking forward to the new update.
We all know where it's coming from, that big cash flow success.
