Part 1 reached over 1200 posts in less than a week. Clearly the smuggler & bounty hunter professions care deeply about the design of any kind of smuggling system. I'm really happy with the level of response. A lot of people who don't normally post are chiming in with their opinion and, in general, the discussion has been civil.

• Normal Mission: You lose NPC faction with that supplier. You lose a small amount of GCW faction if the supplier belongs to a faction. You could possibly be ambushed by thugs from that supplier.
• Critical Mission: Harsher versions of the above + you gain visibility.

1. Some players feel that dying isn't enough of a punishment.
2. Some players recommended a faction hit.
3. Some players feel that storm troopers are too weak.
4. Players don't like that only storm troopers scan.

Solution: The solution obviously has several parts. We need to discuss more what the punishments should be. There are a few types of punishment that we can draw from:

• Loss of GCW faction.
• Loss of NPC faction.
• Combat & risk of death.
• Confiscation of the illegal goods.

One possibility might be to make it so that the scanning NPC isn't the NPC that attacks. Instead he "calls for backup" and the backup is relative to the player's level. This brings up the possibility of a group of players using a low level smuggler to spawn lower level faction targets. The solution to stopping faction farming of scan spawned NPCs is to prevent them from giving GCW faction. There are many other legitimate ways to gain faction. Even if it seems inconsistant, it does make some sense that the Rebels aren't necessarily going to reward a player for killing troopers just doing their job.

This also means that high level smugglers would be dealing with security forces tougher than your average Stormtrooper.

It seems that we should make more factions other than Imperial scan. Why can't the Rebels scan in a Rebel controlled territory? They aren't going to like spice abuse much either. Rebel commanders could then have some immunity from scans in their home regions. Naboo's Royal Security Force (a neutral faction) might also scan and have their own forces to deal with violators.

Summary 3: The third major issue was that smugglers are worried that increased punishments for using illegal items, like spices and sliced gear, will cause a depression in their markets.

Solution: Actually, I disagree with this premise. I don't think there will be a market depression. On the contrary, if I do my job right, there will be a market increase. If spices become reasonably competitive with chef food, or complement chef food in some way, more players will buy them. Similarly, we should be able to modify slicing but also retain its value.

This is an issue I need to think about more before I develop a complete opinion.

At this point, we know the arguments from every side in the debate. There have been enough posts for us to understand the views involved. In this thread, let's talk about possible solutions and compromises. Instead of perpetuating the debate on PvP vs. PvE, look for ways that the two views can be reconciled. This is the next key in effective game design for massively multiplayer games.

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Eposh wrote:

I like the two different types of missions given in Summary 1. It seems like this would be a good compromise between people who want PvP and people who don't. And it's great to have the enticement of better rewards for the higher risk missions, where a failure could result in ending up on the BH terminals. I'll probably be too greedy to resist

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Aye, simple and effective.  I am somewhat dismayed that the general populace doesn't gain visbility when using illegal goods, but I understand the decision.  As long as the law is felt in big enough ways to warrant our services, I could care less.  Besides, as long as they get hastled I like it *muahahahahhahaa*

I'm also very glad that the choice to be hunted by BH's will be implemented!!!!!  Hotdog!!!!  I'm also very happy that the only ones who are going to be taking bounties are the BH players!  I love you guys, you guys are like Tom.. and we smugglers are like Jerry.  We're Bugs Bunny, and you guys are Elmer Fudd (I know you BH's hate being compared to Mr. Fudd).   Woot!

I hope you level your guns at me, because i will duck under your gun sights, rush you, knock your gun to the ground then lay into you.  Momma didn't raise no fool!  Anyways, I look forward to avoiding you

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GreenMarine wrote:

At this point, we know the arguments from every side in the debate. There have been enough posts for us to understand the views involved.

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I apologize for not having some suggestions ready now (I'll give it some thought and post some tomorrow)... but I just had to point out how good it feels to hear a developer here say these words.

Message Edited by KaptainKrude on 06-22-2004 01:13 AM

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I'm not sure I much care for the NPC bounty hunter idea.  The bounty hunter's job is to hunt down hard merchandise and deliver it to the employer (or, in SWG's case, kill the target).  I don't want NPC bounty hunters the same was I don't want NPC smugglers.

 

That said, I do not think PvP should be required for all people all the time.  Here's an old idea I had that I'll throw out for everyone.

 

Novice Smuggler to Underworld 3 allow for PvE smuggling missions.  This is basic stuff.  Grab cargo from employer, deliver to recipient, get paid.  Maybe even throw in some NPC engagements at the meeting point or something.  Allow the slicing skill to help determine whether or not opposition is to be expected, and possibly to misroute any authorities from the dropoff point.  In this case, death equals mission failure.

 

Underworld 4 not only ups the level of mission you can take PvE-wise, but also allows for missions that may result in a bounty being placed on your head.  The mission descriptions would say something similar to: "Warning: Failure of this mission may result in a bounty being placed on your head by the employer.  Accepting this mission signifies you accept that possibility."  Since these missions have a higher degree of risk, higher rewards would be offered.  Master Smuggler again increases mission difficulty.

 

This isn't a case of PvPers vs. PvEers.  It's a simple matter of those who (like me) want to take the risk of being hunted by a person in exchange for a higher reward if we are successful.  I'm no PvPer, but I'll gladly accept being hunted by a BH if it means we have a meaningful profession in this game.

 

Granted, this only takes into account smuggler missions.  I think GreenMarine's expanded visibility idea would be good, so long as there is decay over time, and possibly a way for smugglers to slice terminals to relieve that visibility (which does exist in GM's current plan).  Those who wish to take the chance are rewarded with the ability to use better weapons, at the risk of being hunted, but there is a way to get out of it.

 

I respect the PvE position greatly.  I am a PvE player.  I rarely PvP outside of RP events and friendly duels.  But it is time for people to realize that spices and sliced weapons and armor are not rights.  They are priveleges for those willing to take the risk of using them.

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One thing I don't really care for is all the attacking.  For one, it would suck if I'm on my way to Endor to meet up with a group and I end up having to go get new buffs because I got scanned at an inopportune time.  However, I don't think there should be no penalties for carrying illegal items.

 

What I recommend is a fine system that allows fines to be built up over time.  For instance, under GM's system above, if you're caught with a quasi-legal spice (thrusterhead maybe), you are attacked.  According to the in-game lore, the ONLY current spices that are banned or outright illegal are muon gold and scramjet.  What I recommend is the following:

 

Quasi-legal items result in a small fine.  Not too much, but not too little either.  It should sting a bit, but not hurt financially.  The fine is not paid immediately, but the player must travel to an NPC town (maybe even just capitols) and find an Imperial Desk Clerk to clear up the fine.

 

Banned items will result in stiff fines and a small amount of visibility.  Again, the fines are paid at a desk clerk in an NPC city.

 

Highly illegal items are as above--attacks, high visibility, etc.

 

Fines can go so long without being paid before a warrant is put out for you.  Since there is no incarceration, a "warrant" would put a flag on your character that would be checked during scanning.  If a warrant is found, the scanning team will attack.  Death removes the warrant and pays the fines automatically.  Surviving adds visibility.

 

Visibility would go to the BH system.  When a certain amount of visibility is reached, the Empire (or whoever) puts out a bounty for you.  Death clears the bounty (and automatically pays the fines owed, if any).  Killing the BH adds visibility.  Visibility is sort of an "infamy" system in itself.  High visibility means a high frequency of breaking Imperial law.  Visibility should decay over time.  The goal is to send BHs after repeat offenders--not the recreational spice user (unless that spice is on the "banned" list).

 

Smugglers will have the skill at Slicing I to slice in to a bounty terminal to check on visibility and warrants.  Warrants and bounties can both be removed, resetting visibility and all fines up to that point.  The more visibility and fines accrued, the tougher the job.  Detection of the smuggler causes a bounty to be placed on his/her head at maximum visibility AND a warrant is issued for the smuggler.  At this point, it is wise for the smuggler to lay low for a while.  At this point, we could add in the false ID skill for scanning checkpoints to fool the NPCs for a while.

 

It's really a small change to the overall system (though I have no doubt it's somewhat more complicated to code), but I think it adds a decent "realism" factor to the game.  Since I don't think Stormtroopers have "kill all criminals on sight" in their job description, fines make more sense and are more internally consistent to the game world.

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