StGabriel
Swordsman Correspondent
Posts: 4458
Registered: 09-08-2003
Server: Test Center
Hi, I'm putting this up to you guys for review. I'll be playing "tourist" in Chicago this weekend so I won't be around to comment until Monday or so. But please post all comments, concerns and questions. What did I leave out, as well as what I might skip over.
This is design or vision document intended to convey what we want the Swordsman profession to be. Note that brevity is important here. The goal is to be concise and to capture the essentials of how Swordsmen see themselves. That means that I can't mention every single problem with the profession or every single wish that we might have. Also I'm sticking to a proscribed format. I've gotten these thoughts from the In Concept thread as well as my old "vision" thread.
Finally let me say that this is definitely not the final version. I'm not happy with everything here but I wanted to get something out as quickly as possible to solicit comments. I'm also not sure what exactly is being asked of me so I might have to change as I find out more about what the devs want. I've included a list of various special and defense ideas that I've collected over time (some my own ideas based on what Swordsman want and some based on ideas posted by others on the forums). These may be controversial so feel free to tell me what looks good and what doesn't. Profession: Swordsman
Progression
The Swordsman profession is an elite profession that branches off from the brawler novice profession. It has 29 points in prerequisit skills (2 handed weapons I-IV) and of course requires 63 points for mastery.
Abilities
The Swordsman profession provides a slew of offense and defensive abilities and skills related to the use of two-handed weaponry. Swordsmen see strongly weigh themselves the offensive side of combat however (a poll of Swordsmen concluded that Swordsman should be roughly 75% offense and 25% defense). Choosing swordsman as part of one's character should then reflect a comittment to strong offensive abilities accompanied by a measure of useful but not exceptional defensive abilities.
Offense: Swordsmen wish to excel, above all else, in offensive abilities. The primary attributes of this should be:
High rates of damage. While utilizing slower and less versatile attacks, Swordsmen should have overall very high damage per second.
The ability to impart lasting, crippling effects to their opponents such as bleeding, wounds, stuns, snares, and other such effects.
Heavy armor-piercing abilities. Swordsmen should be able to overcome both heavy armor ratings and high resists.
In terms of skill modifiers, Swordsmen seek modifiers that improve their damage output primarily. These abilities come at the expense of finesse and versatility. Swordsmen are limited by the usage of melee weapons (very short range) and overall lower accuracy and speed.
Swordsmen of course wish to have strong damage output but their offensive abilities hsould not be limited to pure damage. Swordsman wish to be able to impart strong crippling effects on their opponents. A list of possible ideas for Swordsmen damage effects or other special abilities:
Maiming: Specials that deal heavy wounds.
Bleeds: Specials that slowly stack up bleeds, requiring continued attacks to develop in time dealing heavy bleeds.
Stuns: specials that have a chance to delay an opponent for a short time
Concussions: pecials that prevent a target from using specials for a limited time.
Bone breaking: Specials that slow a targets movement or attack rate.
Armor piercing shots: specials that increase the armor-piercing attribute of an attack.
Rage: a greatly improved berserk that temporarily lowers defenses and prevents a Swordsman from watching his HAM bars but greatly increases damage.
Brain damage: imparts a small % chance that any action undertaken by the target is "fumbled" causing a delay but not actually having an effect.
Shock: a special that prevents an opponent from applying medicine for a short duration.
Defense: As a melee profession, Swordsmen seek to provide adequate if not exceptional tanking abilities. As a shock troop, Swordsmen should be tough and able to absorb a decent amount of damage, but offense should come first. Characteristics of Swordsman defense should include:
An emphasis on toughness modifiers and mitigation over the ability to dodge or otherwise be missed.
Counterattack should provide an actual counterattack and some modicum of damage absorption instead of acting as another dodge.
Changes to Center Of Being should be considered giving Swordsmen a unique ability instead of the current Center Of Being which is more "finesse" oriented. This should give swordsman a more distinct role and more distincit abilities and should be more oriented to short-term damage absorption. Some possibilities:
damage reduction for a short duration or a certain amount of damage
increased resistances to status effects
increased regeneration rate
a large heal that operates on a long-term timer
Combat Role
Swordsmen see themselves as shock troops. They provide strong offensive capabilities with enough toughness to get to the front lines and start dealing damage. They are not finesse-oriented which means that they are slower, less accurate and have weaker defenses (for a melee profession). In combat their job is to get to the opponent and deal large amounts of damage quickly as well as to penetrate heavily armored and resistant targets. While vulnerable to ranged weapons, upon closing to close range their damage should be unparalleled. Against other melee professions they will have to leverage strong attacks and crippling effects against the greater defenses, accuracy and finesse moves that these professions bring to bear.
Grouping Role
In a PvE context, Swordsmen see themselves as damage dealers first and tanks second. In a pinch they can tank, but they should not do so as well as other melee professions. In exchange for this and the limitations of being a melee combatant, they provide strong and versatile damage. Ideally a Swordsman will be able to stand up to an opponent when necessary but will defer aggro to the other more capable melee professions. While an ally tanks the Swordsman will step up to deal strong single target and multitarget damage. Furthermore, through the use of crippling attacks a Swordsman may have opportunities to cripple or otherwise hamper PvE content (see ideas for such specials in the "Abilities" section).
Honestly, I do like it. It is a pretty accurace representation of what I believe swordsman is.
Arias Te'thai-Field Surgeon\Master Swordsman\Master Brawler-Alliance Echuu-Working on the Knight Trials CU Alpha Tester Your profession doesn't suck. You do.
FtB
Wing Commander
Posts: 751
Registered: 07-01-2003
PA:
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StGabriel wrote: Changes to Center Of Being should be considered giving Swordsmen a unique ability instead of the current Center Of Being which is more "finesse" oriented.
What about the "Center of Agression" or "Berserk3" idea that was discussed before? Kinda like the Rage idea you mentioned - An advanced state of berserk where damage would be raised for a short period of time, but you would'nt be restricted to default attack. That would definately be more focused towards offense.
What about going back to that really old Specials thread that Gorecki started? there were pages and pages of ideas for abilities on that one.
StGabriel
Swordsman Correspondent
Posts: 4458
Registered: 09-08-2003
Server: Test Center
Actually that old specials thread was part of the inspiration for the specials listed. I carved those out of an old post I made on the Correspondent's Forum where I used the In Concept post, Gorecki's post and my own random ideas. I'll give that guy another look.
One thing I realize I haven't mentioned: mind damage. This is tricky as we don't know what is happening to mind damage in the future (i.e. will it be healable?). If mind damage is healable then I see it as a liability more than anything as mind attacks stack poorly with the attacks from other professions. If mind cannot be healed it is of course a strong advantage in PvP to be able to deal mind damage.
When im thinking of Berserk im thinking of a madman wich cares about nothing except that hes oponent gets slained. A state of total frenzy.
Thus im thinking a berserk mode where the berserker would go on untouched by state changes (no KD, intim., or whatever) and at the same time get a small increase in HAM (Pretty much like the power boost in the meditation line in TK. Maybee mind should'nt be altered or it might even be lowered.) + deal out and take more damage (As you dont care about defence just to inflict damage to your oponent).
Thats my view of a berserk. Pretty much like a crazy junkie. You pump him full with led but still he lunges for your throat.
Hell i might even start to use berserk if it worked like that.
EDIT: nice work BTW .
Message Edited by Eater-of-worlds on 06-04-200409:57 AM
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mackpreacher
Pilot
Posts: 496
Registered: 01-19-2004
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Hi Gabe
i really think that the main state delivered from us must be stun... all of our attacks must give stun, specially the headhits... i mean 100% chance... if you hit headhit, you make the opponent stunned. This gives the advantage to reduce the opponent's defense and makes us more damage deliverers.
For me the counterattack must imply damage delivered to the opponent instead to us and maybe, to compensate, reduce the chance of happening. Or maybe keep the chance as it is and make it work only against melee. I will also reccomend to reduce defenses... we are slow and heavy... rely on the armors and toughness.
Also would be interesting to add some positive/negative modifiers when fighting big/small creatures, or npcs... i would like to have some of the redundant specials removed and changed to reflect the fact that we fight better and more efficiently against bigger opponents and humanoids (cutting throats...)
Definetly add a third kind of damage type, hopefully in the Hack, that, from my point of view should do energy, acid or cold damage.
A new Sword, more tecnological than a katana (add a lightning cripple to a claymore or a two handed broadsword+energy or electricity damage and we all will be pleased!!)
maintain the speed, increase the damage or the AP and reduce the defenses and the swordman will be true heavy melee
cheers
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StGabriel, I believe your post hit it dead on. The 'shock troops' of melee is, in my opinion, the perfect doctrine to follow here. My one concern is the defense, I wonder how viable will be fair as soloing goes after composite armour is 'fixed'. I am primarily a solo'er in PVE, from what I have seen in the past SOE may like to force us into groups but it's something I will never go along with ( being forced that is ). If added offensive capabilities makes up for this lack then I am all for it. I hope that when you mention 'crippling' effects on our attacks it will provide a greaty VARIETY of attacks, not three of the same exact area attack with a greater damage multiplier ( and area 2 still outdoes 3 it would seem ). Those are the only comments/questions I have.
Again, a simply outstanding post and vision on your behalf. This far outdoes what I have seen in the past, you have concentrated on our profession and its integration rather than the usual we should be uber in all.
Overall I like the vision, I do think one of our specials needs to apply the stun state. I dont think we need to press too hard on the "counterattack doesnt do any damage" bit. With a 75/25 offense/defense split we are already saying we want to focus on big hits. Counterattack being a good solid backup defense fits that 25% for me. Where I would put my effort would be in the redudant specials. Its like beating a dead horse in this forum, but I dont see any changes yet, so here we go again
Crowd control should be a secondary effect for us, that really belongs to the pikeman, Sure we can have a decent spin move (we do have fairly large weapons after all), but its not hte main thing we're pushing for. We want powerful DPS (notice not just single strong strikes, the speed to make it good overall has to be there), and as the heavy melee hitters we deserve at least 1 AP3 weapon. My recommendation would be to leave the hammer as blast and ap2, and give us a kinetic ap3. It would be the perfect opportunity for the giant claymore type sword most swordsman ahve been asking for.
Gab, You did a GREAT job on that post. Although here are few things i think should be added. Since swordsmen are using heavy weaponry (i.e. Power hammer) We should have a chance to Kd our oppenent. (if you were hit with a 30 pound hammer on the head i think you'd fall down too)
Also, many may think we should have a slow speed but actually it should be much higher. In The middle ages and ancient times soldiers with 2 handed axes and maces would swing and build up momentum therefore making fast high damaging attacks.( although our accuracy shouldn't go any higher than it is or lower for that matter)
When the armor revamp thing comes out swordsman should be one of the only if not the only profession to be able to wear high resist armor.
Swordsman also should have atleast one Ap3 weapon as others have said.
In PvP our main role should be to Cripple heavily armored opponents (and likewise burn through their condition on the armor) and to Destroy turrets.
In PvE we should be able to solo Mobs (though not to the extent of which we are I.e Soloing Krayts and Axkva Min) but we should still be able to solo NightSisters, rancors etc.
Swordsman should be the Most powerful melee proffesion or the second most power (after pikeman, Tk's 3inch vibrating butterknives(VK's) shouldn't compare to out 30 pound hammers, and fencers 3 foot batons shouldnr compare either.
Kinda stupid idea's but oh well =P
Laffy
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StGabriel
Swordsman Correspondent
Posts: 4458
Registered: 09-08-2003
Server: Test Center
Ok, I'm leaving soon but I thought I'd mention that I see the following things I'd like to work in:
Discussion of mind targetting
Discussion of existing statuses (blind, dizzy, stun, kd)
Critical strike, a popular sort of ability that I missed
A more fleshed out proposal for berserk/rage/etc.
Although if possible I'd like to keep it as short as possible. Also, I'm trying to stay away from specifid requests (as I feel that they will be read as demands which won't go over well). My goal is more to layout a very clear picture of where Swordsmen want to go and then harp on the devs about the details when I get the opportunity to do so. Kind of a top-down approach.
Great job Gabe. This is just what a swordsman should be, a shock trooper who can deal damage. With toughness we could withstand attacks. We should get an AP3 weapon, mainly a big vibro-broadsword, or a big vibro-sword, kinda like an enlongened vibroblade except thicker too. A rage ability would be awesome, so would a maming attack. Mame would make catastrophic wounds on a target. Around 100 at least, but it would be hard to land a hit with it. Or weaker and hits often. Anyway, I also think with our headhit attacks we should stun, our specials should be more diverse, and.........AP3!!! Yeah, so thats my two credits. Laters fellow swordsmen
Corbec Shotokan - Grandmaster of the Red Dragon - Starsider
Overall I like the vision, I do think one of our specials needs to apply the stun state. I dont think we need to press too hard on the "counterattack doesnt do any damage" bit. With a 75/25 offense/defense split we are already saying we want to focus on big hits. Counterattack being a good solid backup defense fits that 25% for me. Where I would put my effort would be in the redudant specials. Its like beating a dead horse in this forum, but I dont see any changes yet, so here we go again
Crowd control should be a secondary effect for us, that really belongs to the pikeman, Sure we can have a decent spin move (we do have fairly large weapons after all), but its not hte main thing we're pushing for. We want powerful DPS (notice not just single strong strikes, the speed to make it good overall has to be there), and as the heavy melee hitters we deserve at least 1 AP3 weapon. My recommendation would be to leave the hammer as blast and ap2, and give us a kinetic ap3. It would be the perfect opportunity for the giant claymore type sword most swordsman ahve been asking for.
I love the idea of us being heavy hitting shock troops. Status effects like maiming and wounding also sound wonderful, and fit our image. Now, here is a suggestion I suspect people may not like, but I want to put it out there anyways: Give us truly obscene damage numbers, but don't give us pool-specific specials. When I swing a sledge hammer I know what I'm swinging at is going to be hurting when I'm done, but I wouldn't use it to put a tac in the wall to hang a picture from. Let us slow our opponents and inflict real injuries that degrade their combat abilities, give us AP3 weapons and numerous damage types, but I don't see us as a class that should be going for head-shots.
I just love the soloing ability. We should also get proper stats appliances, cuz the maine reason we arent so good in PvP as the other melees is because we cant actually dizzy or stun properly.
Well granted this is off the wall from the current Document everyone else is talking about.
But when i envision a Swordsmistress, i see her as doing massive damage. It makes me curious why Fencers get an attack that hits all three pools but not us ... Seems backwards.
What i would like is for massive damage, heavy encumberance, all pool attacks VS. Targeted attacks.
We are wielding Giant heavy Melee weapons here, i dont see alot of room for finesse.
Rage(berzerk 3) would be a nice Special that fits in well with a Claymore Wielding SwordsMistress.
Have more random pool attacks that will give us a random Type of Cripple/Wound/Bleed. Meaning when i hit and get a critical, it would add a corresponding Crippling effect. As in, Leg hit critical would equal snaring, mind hit would equal Stun, Chest hit = knockdown, arm hit would make the defender have to re-equip there weapon (disarm).
I think this is a very refined and pretty much shows what everyone as a swordsmen wants. I remember the dicussions from a while ago, and most if not everything that was a good idea was on here. So good job on that.
Since you asked about rage, I will say what I think it should include. I think rage should increase movement speed, weapon speed, and weapon damage. Our accuracy should go down some, all passive defense goes down to 0. Melee and ranged defense down to 0. Our toughness increases some. And it should last for 30 seconds. Maybe a 10 or 20 minute timer on it too.
Shamoke=Godzilla Godzuki=Asexual offspring ridden by Godzilla
What if counterattack split the damage dealt between the swordsman and the attacker.
The swordsman idea is not to dodge, or block, but to take the hit and use the openning to damage the opponent.
What about splitting the damage between both parties. i.e. I i'm hit for 150 and successfully counterattack we both take 75. I believe this could fit with the idea that the swordsman is focused on offense. I'll rely on my toughness, if i can create an opening that allows me to strike a nimble or highly defensive opponent. This could be tied with a special, that increases counterattack, while leaving the swordsman open to attack to draw in the opponent. This tactic was used by many heavy weapon specialists when the rapier first came into play. Using your body to absorb the quicker weapons thrust tied up the fencers weapon long enough to bring around a two-handed sword/axe/hammer.
Hale
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Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
My concern here isnt the PVP 'mind is the only thing that matters' bit... so much as it is for PVE. With out being able to target a pool you have to do twice as much damage to kill something... because you're going to "waste" hits on the other pools. If part of keeping our powerlevel means sacrifcing pool specific hits that will have to be ok, because I'd rather keep my DPS where it is and deal with random attacks than be nerfed. One overall goal I think they'll have to accomplish is for all the classes to be able to work together, right now each class targets its own pool and so you really arent helping each other. I think whatever fix they have for this will simulataniously solve the mind-pool issue.
-Status effects
I think a 2-handed Stun move would be totally acceptable and within flavor, but it shouldnt be a very powerful strike, it should have a high chance of success, and this should only be an option if its not an excuse for us to be nerfed (sensing a theme yet?). I dotn like the idea of us being dizzy/knockdown guys. One, its lame, Two, its finesse... we dont do finesse. we smash things ina straight up fight, not cheese them.
-Critical Strike
This just screams for us to be the melee commandos... super slow, super inaccurate, big splashy hits. Thats not what I want, if I did, I'd play a commando. I want vicious DPS (and AP) at a cost of defense and finesse.
-Berserk
There is a proposal in the brawler forum about buffing up berserk 2, making it clear stun/intimidate and possibly allow special attacks (not heals). My suggestion would be to throw our weight behind that... because its A) its a special already in the game and B) not in swordsman directly so we wont take hte corresponding nerf... I mean balance.
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