You know, I was curious one day. If speed slices are so bad, why are they even in the game? This led me to do a little research, and I must say I found my answer and it has brought me here to you today. It my desire that after reading this post you will grow a new found respect for the Speed Slice. That's right, I said "respect for the Speed Slice."
Now, as we all know there is a cap for each profession that once you hit it speed no longer matters. These are not the scenarios we are going to be talking about. We are talking raw numbers. These are straight mods from mastering a profession. The first example will be the Carbineer, because they are affected the most.
My standard Laser Carbine, sotcked, is 82-318 @ 3.9spd. A laser carbine is an energy damage weapon with an AP rating of 2. For this look at the numbers we are shooting at a MOB that is 25% resistant to energy damage and has an AP rating of 1.
standard shot/no special - high:447 avg:281 DPS:180 firing at 1 shot per 1.56 seconds leg shot3 - high:894 avg:563 dps:241 firing at 1 shot per 2.34 seconds crippling shot - high:2236 avg:1406 dps:361 firing at 1 shot per 3.9 seconds
The following numbers have been adjusted to show a 25% speed slice. Number between () indicate difference from unsliced weapon.
standard shot/no special - high:447 avg:281 DPS:240 (+60) firing at 1 shot per 1.17 (-.39) seconds leg shot3 - high:894 avg:563 dps:321 (+80) firing at 1 shot per 1.75 (-.59) seconds crippling shot - high:2236 avg:1406 dps:481 (+120) firing at 1 shot per 2.925 (-.975) seconds
The following numbers have been adjusted to show a 25% damage slice. Numbers between () indicate difference from 25% speed sliced weapon.
standard shot/no special - high:558 (+111) avg:351 (+70) DPS:225 (-15) firing at 1 shot per 1.56 (+.39) seconds leg shot3 - high:1117 (+223) avg:702 (+139) dps:300 (-21) firing at 1 shot per 2.34 (+.59) seconds crippling shot - high:2791 (+555) avg:1754 (+348) dps:450 (-31) firing at 1 shot per 3.9 (+.975) seconds
So, here you see that if you are a Carbineer using ANYTHING other than a speed sliced weapon, you are talking more time than is necessary to make your kills. Spamming Cripple for 10 moves with a damage sliced weapon over a speed sliced weapon is costing you over 1500 damage and taking you an extra 10 seconds to do it. Now, there are no 18k MOBs out there with just 25% resist to energy and AP1, but there are MOBs with 9k HAM like this. The longer it takes you to kill them, the more hits they get on you...
So now you're saying, "Come on, Mordie. Who in their right mind is a Master Carbineer and doesn't have any Bounty Hunter to get the speed cap?" Well, to you I say, "Touche'" So let's look at a more desirable profession: Rifleman. The art of the rifle is not cappable without skill tapes. Let's see how a T21 stacks up against a 50% resist AP2, shall we?
Head Shot 3 - 53dps decrease with a 25%dmg slice than a 25% speed slice Strafe Shot 2 - 51dps decrease with a 25%dmg slice than a 25% speed slice Conceal Shot - 30dps decrease with a 25%dmg slice than a 25% speed slice Mind Shot 2 - 36dps decrease with a 25%dmg slice than a 25% speed slice
WOW! Did you see that coming? Of course you did. If it wasn't so I wouldn't be posting this stuff, now would I? Anyway, there you have it. Numerical proof that if you are not a speed capped professional you should be using speed sliced weapons. Anything else would be uncivilized...
Oh wait, you mean you STILL aren't convinced? Ok, it's time to break out the big guns...
*cracks knuckles*
Alright, here we go. It easier to hit close to your speed cap WITHOUT spending millions on attachments. For instance, if I told you that you could speed cap your Rifle without grinding force speed and without spending more than 1.5mil, would it be worth anything to you? Tough, because I am going to tell you anyway:
A T21 made with base krayt and an imperial weapon stock with a 25% speed slice and a 33.5% speed decreasing powerup comes out to 3.1 speed. Your weapon is now a T21 with an actual speed rating of *drumroll* 1.0 seconds per shot. Now you wonder, "Mor-Dan, what shot are you talking about? Auto attack? No? Then it must be like Head Shot 2, right? No? Then which shot?" That is with none other than Stafe2. This same weapon, damage sliced instead, would produce 485dps LESS than the speed sliced/powered up one I just showed you, and take nearly three times as long to fire. If you put a speed power up on the dmg sliced weapon it is still 70dps less AND takes nearly 50% longer to shoot. If you put a 16.5/33.5 min/max power up on it there is a 263dps gap, and still takes three times as long to shoot.
How is this possible? Well, there is little known figure people spend ZERO time looking for. It is called "Weapon Speed To Cap". With a speed mod of 90 for rifleman, and using Strafe2, the weapon speed cap for rifles is 2.86 (this is for a 1.001 time per shot). The special Head Shot 3 has a WSC of 5.0. A VERY obtainable figure with a speed slice and a power up. In fact, a 32% speed slice will put you right on the button. Just another little note, if you switch to Startle Shot 2 instead of Strafe 2, you cap at 3.8 and pick up nearly an additional 100dps. The reason is Startle is a 4x dmg 2.6x spd special while Strafe is a 5x dmg 3.5x spd special. Nearly one full second added, and only 25% damage increase.
So, there you have it. Mathematical proof that the speed slice is actually better than a damage one. So, the next time that Smuggler tells you "32% speed slice," you give out a WOOHOO! and pat him/her on the back and say thanks. If you aren't speed capped, they just did you a huge favor...
Vendor Locations: -1560 120 in Soal Valley, Corellia -4700 5600 north of Theed, Naboo
Mor-Dan, you rock. That was exactly what I wanted to read right at this particular moment. In my experience as Master Rifleman you are absolutely right, if I want something to fall down for good ASAP I'll grab the speed sliced gun over the damage bonus one every time.
I'm still looking for that krayt tissue for ya; all part of my neverending quest to see exactly how much damage I can do without, uh, having to be there in person (some of those Ithorians don't brush their teeth too often).
I always keep 4 LLC's on my BH character at all time. 2 are damage slices and 2 are speed sliced. When I've got several smaller creature to take down instead of one large one, I switch to speed. One of my LLC's is a 435-754 dmg and 2.8 spd. This works great since I have no speed attachments.
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The people who really want the dmg slices are usually those that are buying expensive, loot enhanced weapons. If they can afford those, then they can afford the attachments to cap the speed, and therefore a speed slice is useless to them.
No question about it though, speed slices are useful, especially when you are grinding out a profession. At master speed slices can still be useful, if you have no speed mods. But in order to get the max dmg out of a weapon, a dmg slice is preferred, alongside speed mods.
Keep up these informative posts They are a good read!
Chottle - Master BE/Master Rifleman
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it's 10:30am. numbers hurt my brain. i'm a smuggler so this makes me feel good, although i already preferred speed over damage.
but how did you figure all of this out? i can't seem to wrap my brain around the numbers game of combat in this game. i think that's cause i pushed ALL knowledge of math out of my brain as soon as the last math final i ever took was over. and that was years ago.
but very nice post, i'm impressed even though i haven't a clue what your're talkin about.
cccccccccccccccccccc Kohs V'sto I wanted Smuggling for Christmas but all i got was <--- this stupid hat. I am Jack's ignored profession. Luke Skywalker is DEAD!
GanymedePharuu wrote: it's 10:30am. numbers hurt my brain. i'm a smuggler so this makes me feel good, although i already preferred speed over damage.
but how did you figure all of this out? i can't seem to wrap my brain around the numbers game of combat in this game. i think that's cause i pushed ALL knowledge of math out of my brain as soon as the last math final i ever took was over. and that was years ago.
but very nice post, i'm impressed even though i haven't a clue what your're talkin about.
i think what he said is:
if you have 2 good guns and get a damage slice on one and a speed slice on the other then youll be able to hit harder with the damage sliced one, but thats only if you oneshoot stuff.
If you have to take 5, 6, 7 or such maybe more shots the speed gun will be better cause it fires less damage but faster than the damage gun, so there will be a certain amount of shots where the speed gun will overtake the damage gun.
maybe Mor-dan can clarify a method to determine wether you should use the dmg or speed gun on certain HAM/resist/AP combines, but here we go math again.
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Find me on Tatooine, near Bestine in Mos Bahamut (-1691 -6540)
and after you see this you will understand why the system works the way it does and why we need a new system so badly...
Special Speed Multiplier * Speed of Weapon * (100 - Player Speed Mod) * .01 = Actual Speed
so here we go with a master pistoleer with no additional speed mods:
Stopping Shot = 4.7x dmg multiplier and 4 speed multiplier DE-10 = 4.3spd (no enhancements)
4 x 4.3 x (100-74) x .01 = x 4 x 4.3 x 26 x .01 = x 17.2 x 26 x .01 = x 447.2 x .01 = x x = 4.472
So, a master pistoleer fires stopping shot at 1 shot per 4.47 seconds with no speed mods. The thing to particular attention to is the (100 - player speed mod) figure. Because we are based on a 100pt scale, the closer you get to 100 the quicker you begin to rise up the speed charts.
4 x 4.3 x (100-80) x .01 4 x 4.3 x 20 x .01 17.2 x 20 x .01 344 x .01 = 3.44
You see here that a master bounty hunter is over 1 full second faster that a master pistoleer, which is exactly why their Dmg multipliers are so low (max is 3x). they also have a lower speed multiplier on those (2sec). So a BH fires Eye Shot:
2 x 4.3 x (100-80) x .01 8.6 x 20 x .01 172 x .01 = 1.72
and with a scatter pistol:
2 x 2.1 x (100-80) x .01 4.2 x 20 x .01 84 x .01 = .84
So a master BH speed caps with his available specials and a scatter pistol without any other mods. But you can see now why getting your speed in the mid to high 90s is the goal.
Strafe2 = 3.5 time multiplier
7.4 x 3.5 x (100-90) x .01 25.9 x 10 x .01 259 x .01 = 2.59
See how the current formula pretty much completely does away with the speed of the weapon as you get closer to 100?
7.4 x 3.5 x (100-70) x .01 25.9 x 30 x .01 777 x .01 = 7.77
A non master rifleman could only fire the same shot (which requires master rifle anyway, so it doesn't really matter) at 7.77, which is 3 times SLOWER with just a 22% reduction in player speed.
Vendor Locations: -1560 120 in Soal Valley, Corellia -4700 5600 north of Theed, Naboo
wow that actually makes sense. it's closer to noon though so i'm less zombie-fied
so where did you find these formulas? should i have read the manual?
cccccccccccccccccccc Kohs V'sto I wanted Smuggling for Christmas but all i got was <--- this stupid hat. I am Jack's ignored profession. Luke Skywalker is DEAD!
GanymedePharuu wrote: wow that actually makes sense. it's closer to noon though so i'm less zombie-fied
so where did you find these formulas? should i have read the manual?
no, avoid the manual. it will make you cry as to how far away from the original plan we now are.
the formulas have been developed for quite some time now. i cannot remember where it was i was referred to the first time i asked about it. that is another funny thing. i could have done these numbers at anytime over the past 6 months or so. i just read something a couple of days ago and decided, out of curiosity, what is a speed slice really worth?
and now we know. to a master without attachments a speed slice is worth more damage than a damage slice...
Vendor Locations: -1560 120 in Soal Valley, Corellia -4700 5600 north of Theed, Naboo
since you seem to know a heck of a lot about weapons and the formulas behind combat. i have a question for ya. when you're not certified for a weapon and you equip it, what does it mean that "damage will be greatly reduced"?
how much is it reduced?
say i'm delving into pistoleer, but can't afford skill points to become master. would it be worth it to pack a DE-10? or should i just stick with a FWG5 on one hip and a Rep blaster on the other?
cccccccccccccccccccc Kohs V'sto I wanted Smuggling for Christmas but all i got was <--- this stupid hat. I am Jack's ignored profession. Luke Skywalker is DEAD!
GanymedePharuu wrote: since you seem to know a heck of a lot about weapons and the formulas behind combat. i have a question for ya. when you're not certified for a weapon and you equip it, what does it mean that "damage will be greatly reduced"?
how much is it reduced?
say i'm delving into pistoleer, but can't afford skill points to become master. would it be worth it to pack a DE-10? or should i just stick with a FWG5 on one hip and a Rep blaster on the other?
this forumal i am not absolutely sure about, but i can say with great confidence it does not pay to use an uncerted weapon for any profession except Teras Kasi. the only reason it is good for TK is that the speed mod is not affected by htis formula, and your main damage as a TK comes from bare hands, not the VK. a master tk dmg mod is kinetic, AP0, 255-255 dmg. that's what makes a TK so strong when they equip a VK because you add 38-148 to those stats, making it stronger (stat wise) than a T21. then you add AP1 on top of that and it increases dmg output by 50% against non resistant AP0 opponents.
since the speed mod is not affected by the non-cert, a VK noticibly increases your attack speed. i am not sure about the player speed mod, but i think it is 4.0. so, to cap a Hit2 special requires a player speed of 90, which is achieved at 0/0/4/0 in the TK tree. OR, you can achieve it at 0/0/3/0 with a speed sliced VK, because the WSC is 2, which is achieved with either a speed power up or a simple 10% speed slice.
Vendor Locations: -1560 120 in Soal Valley, Corellia -4700 5600 north of Theed, Naboo
Mor-Dan, great post! Please also post this in the smuggler forum so that they have a leg to stand on and can help pass this info around--excellent work, my friend!
----- Etragahl (Former Jedi, Now SOE Slave) Tal'Ira (Former Creature Handler, Now SOE Slave)
Dear SOE Developers, can I have some of what your smoking??
They are a good read! 
