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Re: 'Just PvE templates' Ultimate Guide by vnicula
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damonbrinkley
Jedi
Posts: 827
Registered: 12-07-2003


damonbrinkley

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vnicula wrote:
Hey all,
GunJacker thanks for your posts,
 
I'm repeating myself but 'repetitio est mater studiorum'
 
1. Best template for single high end mobs (elders/ancients):
Master Brawler/Master Swordsman/Doctor 4200/Combat prowess 0040
 
There is no If, there is no But..., there is no Wait...
 
I made a pathetic try to use an academic language, my mistake. Here is more directly:
 
a) Elders/Ancients dont give a sheet on your defences. You can have +100 dizzy/stun/blind/kd/posture, you will be blinded, dizzied, stuned, laying on the floor.
b) Stun state removes all your defences vs states, ALL.
c) There are 3 types of fights with the elders (you have to kill at least 50 to understand and verify this):
easy fight (couple of dizzy, 1-2 KD's, 1-2 bleeds, your health bar is almost full every time = you can watch tv, grab a sandwich)
annoying(6-7 dizzy+KD, 4-5 bleeds, 1-2 bleed stack, blind and stun almost all the fight, frequent dizzy attacks = heal, heal, heal you must watch your toon)
bmf (hehe, frequent bleed stack, dizzy attack all the time, KD only with dizzy(this is the sign), HIGHER damage to you = vercupti and muon + warcry and heal like crazy)
 
Ancients are like big puppies, they cannot kill you. They are more annoying than elders because they have +95% resist to all (except you know what) and higher HAM. Expect a long fight to take one solo. Also watch your ph, if you start with 250 remaining condition and use PUPS, at some point you'll notice the beast is laughing at you.
Ancients use dizzy attacks so frequently that  you can use 5 cure dizzy packs in a fight. Also they tend to move a lot (because they use area attacks and many low level creatures -including jedi here- are trying to attack them back). It's annoying because we cannot afford terrain negotiation.
 
Before someone wants to post something like 'I'm Master Fencer/Master Swords/Master Brawler/Medic 2040 and I solo elders all the time' I just want to add this:
 
You can solo many elders with Master Brawler/Master Swords/Medic 2040/Whatever. In time you'll meet a bmf elder. Then at some point you'll run.
 
About the /firstaid efectiveness: Get the template I recommend, you'll see that /firstaid works much better with Doc 4200
 
Peace



I can agree with that but I would go with Combat Prowess 0004 for the speed and not the accuracy.

I'm currently in a delimma with my Flurry character on whether to get Def Vs. defenses, melee/ranged defenses, or just keep the Doc skills I have.  I'm thinking the latter for the reasons you said above since I plan on hunting high-level stuff.  You're going to get hit anyway so it's best to have good stims to heal with.

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Misma Mookie
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10-14-2004 11:34 AM  

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Re: 'Just PvE templates' Ultimate Guide by vnicula
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DrewBuddhaMan
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Reply 32 of 56

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Not quite the "best" solo template but if you hunt in groups this one works very well
 
master swords, master rifle, novice medic, tka 4-0-0-2 Prowess 0 0 0 2
 
Very high damage output against anything in the game, if you are in a small group you are practically guaranteed loot rights. Decent defense, self heal wounds and disease between battles, stim b's.
 
Master rifle is much more effective than /lunge2 for the wandering mob's.
I once spent 1 1/2 hours looking for a dotor to heal my wounds. All the doc's in cnet med center were too busy healing afk tumblers. After that tka meditation 4 was MUST for gameplay reasons.
 
Weakness are state defenses. Thats why i still need to hunt with a buddy, if i get KD/dizzy i can wait it out while my friend takes the beating. I'm not quite speed capped. I have millions but 2h speed are still hard to find before buyout.

Buddhaman Drew
Master Swordsman
Master Rifleman
Retired Armorsmith

10-15-2004 06:59 AM  

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Re: 'Just PvE templates' Ultimate Guide by vnicula
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cwhooks
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cwhooks
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GunJacker wrote:
1. Mbrawl, Mswords, 4300tka, 0040fence, 2040med (0030art)
 
2. Mbrawl, Mswords, NovDoc (0030art)
 
3. Mbrawl, Mswords, 4000tka, 3004pike, 2004med (art 0030)


If you're goign to go with 2040 med, I would not get TKA.  I'd get defense lines from fencer abd pikeman instead.  You get more bang for your buck with the state defenses which you need more than melee/ranged defense agaisnt Krayts, Eldars and the Acklay...  Having TKA mediate is partially redundant with medic skills and with so many points tied up in artisan...

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10-15-2004 01:33 PM  

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Re: 'Just PvE templates' Ultimate Guide by vnicula
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Milgram
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Milgram

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Good call on the elder levels.  I have done 1 and 2.  Gee, i can't wait to run into the BMF elder.  Sounds like a lot of fun.  That is some good experience put to words.  You should paste it into the top part so lazy people will see it too .  Speeking of lazy, still haven't gone out to the geo caves yet.  I better get on that...


I'm With-Stupid n I-am With-I'm
The Jedi Jeweler - Outside Theed at -3990 4485
I go Bakersfield Chimp on Krayts and Nightsisters. You Savvy?
- I support keeping & balancing the current combat system You can too

10-15-2004 02:00 PM  

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Re: 'Just PvE templates' Ultimate Guide by vnicula
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vnicula
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vnicula

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Hi Ochimo444,
 
Subject: Swords/Doc
 
You're not the only one who appreciates the 'simple and noble' template Doc/Swords. When you show up every member of your group has a morale boost. Mmm, this guy can rez and rebuff me, I feel better, I can go crazy now running directly to Armoire and Broken droid room to loot!
 
But when you decide to face an elder alone (hehe, we all know the reasons behind that decision) could you use all your skills against your opponent?
250 Skill points. Do you have all this 250 spts used AGAINST your opponent? Ok, you can place a hospital but you know what: the elder doesnt care.
 
Use all your 250 spts wisely. Decide who you are and what you want first. Dont keep group skills if you're a lone wolf addicted to loot.
Have 2 chars on the same server? Great, make the second one doc/musician.
 
And you sir get template 1).
 
Peace

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10-16-2004 04:28 AM  

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Re: 'Just PvE templates' Ultimate Guide by vnicula
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westcoastavenger
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westcoastavenger

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Hey guys, been following this thread.  Firstly, I love PVE.  I really like PVP, but my guild isn't too active these days and I'm a big lore fan of the movies, EU, etc.  The thought of taking on Ancient Krayts and NS Elders really appeals to my RP'ing sense of solo-badass =)
 
I'm currently:  Master TKA (because I love the story behind the discipline) Master Pistoleer (because what's Star Wars without blasters?) Polearms 1 & 2 (for NS lances) Fencer 3/4/x/x Novice Medic.
 
I do alright against lower level NS's, ect.  Never tackled a Krayt solo.  I would like a template keeping TKM in the mix.  My question is:  What is it about Master Swordsman that is so effective against NS's and Krayts?  Blast damage?  Or just higher damage output with PH's and whatnot than I can do unarmed?
 
Thanks for the help.
 
Also, working my way up to padawan, so the change I'm looking for would be temporary, but need something to do while grinding FS XP, might as well be for a new template and some good loot.


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10-16-2004 11:12 AM  

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Re: 'Just PvE templates' Ultimate Guide by vnicula
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damonbrinkley
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damonbrinkley

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I dropped TKM to 4/3/0/4 on my template because I didn't need an AP1 kinetic weapon (TK) when I had a AP2 kinetic weapon (scythe). I rarely used my TK skills so I just kept the defenses and meditate lines to compliment my swords skills.

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Misma Mookie
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10-16-2004 12:07 PM  

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Re: 'Just PvE templates' Ultimate Guide by vnicula
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Ahoobagoony
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Hmm thanks for the good info!
10-16-2004 04:59 PM  

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Re: 'Just PvE templates' Ultimate Guide by vnicula
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smork
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master sword, master brawler, tk 4301, fencer 0440, novice medic, 24 points in fs

Fight through your bleeds instead of wasting time healing them.
10-17-2004 11:38 AM  

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Re: 'Just PvE templates' Ultimate Guide by vnicula
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Milgram
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Milgram

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Fight through your bleeds instead of wasting time healing them.


Then /burstrun at 500 health.


I'm With-Stupid n I-am With-I'm
The Jedi Jeweler - Outside Theed at -3990 4485
I go Bakersfield Chimp on Krayts and Nightsisters. You Savvy?
- I support keeping & balancing the current combat system You can too

10-18-2004 01:45 AM  

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Re: 'Just PvE templates' Ultimate Guide by vnicula
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Milgram
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Milgram

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I do alright against lower level NS's, ect.  Never tackled a Krayt solo.  I would like a template keeping TKM in the mix.  My question is:  What is it about Master Swordsman that is so effective against NS's and Krayts?  Blast damage?  Or just higher damage output with PH's and whatnot than I can do unarmed?


Blast damage = all night sisters vulnerable to it
Swords also has the highest damageoutput
Sworks also has a high toughness, not as good as TKM, but still very good.
Swords also have good def vs. ___, much better than TKM.  Crap for Melee, and ranged, but those are irrelevant for elders and Krayts.
 

Vnicula, I think you will find this interesting.  I usually fight night sisters solo, but sometimes with my friend.  He is rifle/TKM/Fencer 0440 Medic.  When we fight protectors, he will pull with the rifle, then we both beat them to death in their heads.  I noticed that he is always stunned, and always blinded, as well as getting dizzy.  Then it struck me.  I got a +18 Stun, +9 Blind shirt that has put my def vs. stun over 100, and my def vs blind at 100 with a +1 in the armor.  Before i got the shirt, i would occasionaly get blinded and stunned.  Ever since i got it, i cannot recall being blinded or stunned.  Then I remembered my friend the pikeman doing stun to a krayt over and over for about a minute without getting it to land.  I do not think that stun has the auto 10% rule.  Also, when is the last time anyone has dizzied an elder or a Krayt.  I have never seen it since they ubered the two.  Out of 25 krayts and 20 elders I have tanked with my basic high def vs states template, i have only been Dizzy/KDed once, and that is while a krayt had me stunned, and before i got the +Stun Def shirt.
 
If 100% stun/dizzy/blind resist is true, it might mean bad things for your Doc template.  It is pretty low in these defences.  The only two states i need to cure are KD and Bleed.  One i can do with /stand, and the other takes 2000 medic.  Having all the wound treatment and Stim E's would be very nice, i must say.  If healing states is your only reason for doc though, that is a lot of points that could go into more combat ability.  Interested to hear your thoughts.
 
My pistoleer 0040 template cannot solo an elder with a med penetration weapon (yet).  That is probably an area where the Doc is very very nice.  I can get by until she is about 1/2 dead.  About then she usually gets her poop together and decides she should double choke me while stacking a huge bleed.  I can whip the hell out of a ap0 weapon Elder though.  Even if they stack a 800 point bleed, i can heal fast enough to keep in the game because she cannot take my mind down fast enough.  Against the med pen weapons, i ended running away and kiting them with my pistol.  I would take them about 4-500 meters out from their spawn, then stop shooting.  They would disapear when i was no longer doing damage to them.  This would remove the ap2 sister and replace her with a much kinder, less angry  ap0 Elder (sometimes).
 
Someone correct me If I am wrong, but doesn't firstaid treat your bleed for 100+ wound treatment?  I am a 2000 medic, and i cure 105 bleed per hit (tested on rancors who do 150 point bleeds every time)  A bleed resist shirt didn't do anything that i noticed.  Is it lowering the % of getting blead?  Anyway, my presant plan is to get a +16-+18 injury/wound treatment shirt and get +10 Stun Def from SEA's.  This should help out quite a bit on the BMF bleeds for 800 I am hoping.  Ran into one of those by the way.  She didn't land any states on me other than KD, but the bleeds were just amazing.  The crazy b1tch was swinging a med pen axe.  Had to introduce her to 2 atst's (she took 1 out) before that whole ordeal was over. 
 
Vnicula, defenently interested to hear your take.


I'm With-Stupid n I-am With-I'm
The Jedi Jeweler - Outside Theed at -3990 4485
I go Bakersfield Chimp on Krayts and Nightsisters. You Savvy?
- I support keeping & balancing the current combat system You can too

10-18-2004 02:32 AM  

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Re: 'Just PvE templates' Ultimate Guide by vnicula
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vnicula
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vnicula

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Hey Milgram,
 
I'll give you directly my conclusions, I'll elaborate more some other time, I cannot do this now
 
As a pro Swordsman you may fail to kill an elder only for 2 reasons:
 
a)you can't heal a stacked bleed AND your damage fast enough
b)you get dizzy/kd'ed on low ham or with a nasty bleed on you
 
Having good doctor skills its the only choice to solve both. You can cure dizzy next sec when it lands and cure bleed in maximum 3 heals, usually only one is needed.
You think you can do it with medic 2000 and stacked state defenses? No! Just have patience with elders and you'll meet one who will prove you I'm right.
 
Ok, what about medic 2040 and defenses stack? Hmm, no! You'll kill many elders and at some point you'll think its enough.
 
But one day you'll die because you cannot /stand quick and when you manage to /stand your /firstaid seems to be too slow and too weak and you have to heal the damage too and the bleed ticks and you use a vercupti and warcry but warcry doesn't work and you notice the elder is no longer intimidated and you try to intimidate but it doesn't stick and you try again the warcry and do some healing change PSG and intimidate, the bleeding is there though, try another /firstaid and bleeding is still there, 'you sustained more beeding', a dizzy just landed and you pray 'dont KD me, dont KD me, I have defences' while hitting /firstaid but the kd lands and you take the pixie and another synthsteak and try to eat another vercupti but youre too full, finally the /stand works and youre up and change the PSG but the bleeding, the bleeding its just too much for you, your /firstaid cannot cure it and that BMF elder continues to bleed you, and your healing timer is so slow and your BF its so high and you heal yourself only for 400 dam or so with your good old D's but the bleed is more and you start to think that your medic skills are not enough but its too late, a critical strike just put more bleeding and drain almost all your health bar, you hit warcry and burstrun, nothing seems to work, you cannot burstrun while dizzy but you cannot cure dizzy so you just heal yourself for the last time, eat a kwi adrenal boost and hit lunge2 praying praying, nothing happens, you stored your bike cause you thought you're uber, one more heal and one more bleed tick and you start hitting /forceOfWill ... and you're gone.
 
Free trip to outpost though.
 
Ok, maybe its not too often but it happens. If you have template 1) it takes longer to kill it but you're safe.
 
About state defences. Could you believe TH? I cant believe that guy! I tested for myself some time ago and found this: the best Swords stack (if i remember well MSwords/Mbrawler/Pistoleer 1040/Fencer 0440/Pikeman 0040) easily got a stun from a TKM after 5 hits. I dont remember if I used a BE shirt but the template I tested had
more than 100 def vs stun. I was very dissapointend at that time. The same with blind, dizzy, they all stick in less than 10 hits. If youre already in stun state they stick in 2 hits. Please test it yourself, /duel your tkm friend, put a 2h weapon and tell him to do only /unarmedStun. Count the hits, note them, wait for stun to wear off then repeat. Please post your results. Also test the other states just to see if they stick. A more accurate test (I already tried that) can be done with a MLS because they have a greater chance than a TK to put states. Tell your jedi friend to use Flurry2 or  Dervish2 on you. In my experience after 5-7 hits you have all states on you depending on how fast the stun sticks.
 
TH said that cap on defences is 125. The question was about melee defence but the answer was general. As far as I tested the 10% rule applies WITHOUT any exception on PC (player characters). I'll try the shirt and +110 vs stun to see if they changed something meanwhile.
 
For high level mobs the engine doesn't use the 10% rule. We can just dream on having elders/ancients defences vs states. Even so, I have seen ancient kd, elder kd, sbd kd, dark jedi master kd. They have problems too
 
Peace.

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10-18-2004 04:45 PM  

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Re: 'Just PvE templates' Ultimate Guide by vnicula   [ Edited ]
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vnicula
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vnicula

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Hey Milgram,
I went MS/MB/Medic2000/Pistoleer 0040/Fencer 0440/Prowess 0043 to see if there is something behind BE Stun clothes.
Well I must say that we have different experiences because I was getting stun state like usual from my jedi friends. One of them even had the chance to incap me and he never won a duel with me before, he was very curious how did it happen (usually he runs out of force in 3-5 minutes because I spam 2hhit3 and warcry/heal). Not to mention that a CM/Rifleman beat me 3 times in a row and usually he was easy prey for me (omg, how can you manage a 600-700 mind poison stack without doc??). Everybody laughed at my new template because any good PvPer knows Doc 2xxx is a must these days.
 
Once I saw this I went to Dath and do my usual buff session there. I managed to kill like 6 elders, one of them was a tough fight inside their stronghold. I killed at least 100 low level NS and never get a stun YES. Anyway the last elder was that kind of fight when you pray to finnish her before your last PSG is toasted. I got some blind states from the NS though. And if I remember well a dizzy or two. And at least 3 KD but not one dizzy/KD. It was nothing new for me only annoying because Medic 2000 is too darn slow and weak. I doubt there are many players which can solo a BMF elder with a stun baton with this template. Ive done it only because I have janta stim Bs and uber armor/PSG, 760 dam ph toasted from powerups, 264 mind poison pike and I use the intimidation stack, not to mention my experience (I try not to get stucked in an animation, run around them etc).
 
This template is good for killing elders but believe me I'll get my MS/MB/Doc4200/Prowess 0040 back after I'll camp a little the DWB. I went there too with a small group and I felt melee mitigation3+ ranged mitigation2 is a good combination in there. Im sorry I dont have time to elaborate more now, gotta go. Ill keep this template a little because the work on a fencer its annoying without broken spawns and I dont have any pistol xp banked so I want to bank some.
 
About the dot geo, you dont need Pistoleer to use it. The dot sticks anyway (mine is 88% potency) and the damage is crap. Im using it in pvp with any template for 5 months. My DoT LVA works very well with master brawler and here is the trick to use it to change wep:
 
Youre running around enemy, hit the /firstaid self or /healdamage self and immediately Shift-F2 for example to change to geo pistol. The pistol will appear quickly, the same time with the healing animation. Fire until the dot stick then /warcry and change back to hammer. After 1 min do the same with the pike. Remember, first 'changeItem' is quick and the counter reset in 30 sec I think.
 
I gotta to go,
Peace.
 
Good Luck

Message Edited by vnicula on 01-05-2005 12:02 PM

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11-02-2004 04:03 PM  

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Re: 'Just PvE templates' Ultimate Guide by vnicula   [ Edited ]
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cwhooks
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cwhooks
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Been doing a bunch of testing on NS Elders, I have a friend who is master rifleman with a mixture of doctor and combat medic...  Been runnign with my friend as my template isn't quite complete and I was testign a few things... 
 
First batch of NS Elders
 
Master Brawler
Master Swordsman
0040 Pikeman
4000 Fencer (Already had this from holo grind)
0001 marksman (SP reserved for the medic part of my template and to generate AP points)
1000 medic
And 6 trees of FS all the combat and the 2 melee/ranged D in relfexes.
 
With this template, the goal was to keep me bleed, state and damage free.  So I was dealing damage and my friend was just doing all the healing...  With this template, he could not keep me free of states...  Once a stun hit, pretty much everythign else followed quickly...  I had to state clothing either...  In the end, we settled on him jsut curing bleeds and dizzy first, then any other states if he got a chance...  Fencer and TKA style sisters were easy, pikeman were medium and swordsman NS were hard.  The stun baton NS sent us both to the cloner.   I had a ver hard time with my mind pool running low.  As a Rodean I have 1000,500,550 for midn stats.  I have music/dnace buffs and was using Brandy and canape...  Was also running a CoB macro for some fights and not for others...  CoB doesn't seem todo anything noticeable to me, other than drain my mind.  With CoB off my mind is in much better shape.
 
Second batch of NS Elders
 
Master Brawler
Master Swordsman
0040 Pikeman
0230 Fencer  (planning on getting 0240)
0001 marksman (SP reserved for the medic part of my template and to generate AP points)
1000 medic
And 6 trees of FS all the combat and the 2 melee/ranged D in relfexes.
 
With this template thigns were quite a bit better...  Unless a stun hit me, states were fairly rare, except for bleeds.  My friend was easily able to keep up with healing chores and deal some damage.  Elders were defiantely dropping faster!  Tried a few solo and if no stuns would hit me, I could get them under 100k mind before my friend had to step in and help, cause my mind was drained for healign myself or bleeds were to much.  I also put on a +18 stun def shirt.  Was also using medicla pants for +25, but when BF get's up from all the bleed, it doesn't seem to help as my stim B's are only healing 300.  So the state defense are helpign quite a bit and I haven't finishing putting together some clothes and armor with SEAs to get me to 90 in all the states (stun, dizzy and knockdown seem most important).  However...  In order to solo these guys, I still have 3 problems to solve...  Mind pool drain, bleeds and stun...  I can most likely solo Elders right now, but it's going to be one heck of an adrenaline ride...  A doctor splash to solve the bleed and stun problem is lookign very attractive...  However, that will just increase my mind pool drain, which I see as my biggest problem!  Things is...  I want to have the cure state ability along with my current defense level *lol*

Message Edited by cwhooks on 11-10-2004 05:17 PM

Battleaxe - Bloodfin galaxy.
Surveyor of Lok and 12 point Master FS Weaponsmith.
_____ Resources, Sliced Weapons, Skill tapes, Loot...
Mall.....800m from Theed starport at -5139 3399.
_____ Deliveries use any vendor named 'BA's ...'.
11-10-2004 05:05 PM  

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Re: 'Just PvE templates' Ultimate Guide by vnicula   [ Edited ]
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vnicula
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vnicula

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Hey cwhooks,
 
Some of my friends reported a toughness bug lately, this is the only explanation I have to your problems. With a buddy rifleman/some doc/some cm elders are a walk in the park. I can't confirm the toughness bug because I soloed an elder yesterday without problems with my test template (see above).
 
I dont want to insult you in any way just to remind you to keep the elder intimidated all the time. CoB make you harder to hit (so its like a +melee defence which is useless against elders) but also (I'm talking about my experience) enhances your chances to counterattack (like a +counterattack). I'm using it even against elders because of my mind stats.
 
The state defences stack works against elders, yes. Thanks to Milgram's observations and my tests I can confirm this: if you have a template with +90 stun defence and you wear stun BE shirt +18 and some attachments for +7 you will never(!) get stun from elders. In PvP you'll easily get a stun from a jedi or even TKM.
 
I played a little with your template and I can suggest this one (you will be able to solo ANY elders with good stim C's and very well prepared):
 
MB/MS/Medic 2130/Fencer 0440/ Pikeman 0040/FS crapola
 
I adapted this template to your current template so its easy to get it (tumblers everywhere).
You can try also MB/MS/Novice Doc/FS crapola but because of some FS wasted points you cannot get Doc 4200 which is the level of Doc I consider better than state def stack.
 
Ahh, important: heal the bleed FIRST.
 
Peace.

Message Edited by vnicula on 11-10-2004 10:29 PM

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11-10-2004 10:28 PM  

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