First, let me say that the most any CH wants is more storage. This is it. So remember when you comment the priority is storage. The rest are things that are really non-issues but try to make CH fun, give it a niche and things some of us would like to see. Maiden stated something that I realized as well. The CH stable already exists in game. Anyone who has completed the Hero Badge Quest went to the Rancher's Place.There are about 16 creatures in pens in the yard. We only need one art for this concept. The laddering concept can change automatically when the CH rises in levels. Tott brought up a point of whether this should be something that everyone has and the CH would provide the animals. We need to talk this through further. It is my opinion that with BE pets being available, allowing everyone to have it doesn't necessarily mean we get more business. There are database issues already. Ch asking for this creates more. If the house were a medium house and stores things inside as well then most people may see a benefit of being pleasing to the eye and functionality as a trade off for higher maintenance costs. This would mean more people would want to have this and could be a roadblock in getting it. BTW Tott I placed some CL Limit restrictions in using your model and adapted it to the concept that was already in place. I have mentioned in the past of making this with a commercial and non-commercial switch. Non-commercial would act simply as an extension of the datapad or a Creature Bank. Nothing could be bought, sold, collected, trained, etc. In this version consider the maintenance halved for non-commercial structures although feeding would remain. Manger Gained in Creature Taming I: Basic Domestication Monetary Maintenance: 30cr/hour (720cr/day) Food Required: 1/pet/day Animals Held: 4 adults (2 babies) or total of CL60 Lots Required: 4 DNA Sampling: No Stable Gained in Creature Management II: Advanced Organization Monetary Maintenance: 60cr/hour (1440/day) Food Required: 1/pet/day Animals Held: 8 adults (4 babies) or CL120 Lots Required: 4 DNA Sampling: No Barn Gained in Creature Training III: Martial Obedience Education Monetary Maintenance: 90cr/hour (2160cr/day) Food Required: 1/pet/day Animals Held: 12 adults (6 babies) or CL180 Lots Required: 4 DNA Sampling: No Corral Gained in Master (Edited for error) Monetary Maintenance: 120cr/hour (2880cr/day) Food Required: 1/pet/day Animals Held: 16 adults (8 babies) or CL240 Lots Required: 4 DNA Sampling: YES
Monetary Maintenance is self-explanatory. I have not altered it up or down as of yet. Any monetary payout should expect some decent payback. If this idea simply gets reduced to you can have stables that display pets without any real function I would ask that they be reduced. The power requirement is removed as of this version. Future power requirements would be battery based on Milk Maid droid modules (TBD). Food is necessary to keep any animal healthy. It is required to keep animals. Food has mean changed to "foraged food" or "flora farmed food". 1/pet/day seems to allow better planning for extended periods of CH not playing. It is easier math than figuring up 24/pet/day (I hate math). Disease was removed as of this version. Animals Held was given a CL limit as well. This provides a cap from having too many larger creatures (even though the theory that pets causing lag seems more a myth than anything). Lots Required is set for 4. All structures will use the same Rancher Model as in the Hero Badge Quest. One structure will upgrade with the CH so changes will be made automatically. Including maintenance. DNA Sampling. This would allow BE to sample taking a vitality hit per sample. Any pet with less than 100 Vitality could never breed. Breeding: (thanks Cyphaze this is him word for word). Only possible in Barn and Corral. Requires 2 identical full-grown NON-BE'd creatures of the same species, both with 100 vitality (i.e. two Grauls would work, but a Graul and a Graul Mauler would not). Creatures over a certain level cannot be bred (50 seems like a good cap - rules out reproduction of ultra-rares). Keep reading for info on how a CL of a creature affects its breeding rate. Requires the holding structure's owner to utilize the "Manage Corral" (or Manage Barn) radial menu to choose which creatures are paired and placed in the same "breeding chamber" (creatures do not breed unless placed in the same breeding chamber [note that this term refers to a virtual chamber accessable from the radial menu, not anything physically visible]). Breeding creatures produce 1 baby of their species every "birthing period" (number of hours equal to twice the creature's CL) and must be fed 2 food each per hour for as long as they are kept in the breeding chambers. Time until the end of a birthing period within a specific chamber is displayed in the "Manage Barn/Corral" radial menu item. A baby will not be produced at the end of a birthing period if there is not space for it, and the owner will have to wait another birthing period for the next baby (and ensure there is space for it). This one is important: GROWTH RATE FOR BABY CREATURES IS DOUBLED WHILE STORED IN THE CORRAL. This ensures we can actually produce creatures at a moderate rate for sale. Editor note: BE pets are considered hybrids and sterile by definition. Breeding brings a problem with many creatures not having expressed titles to reflect sexual dimorphism. IE. There are no Female Graul. These would have to be tagged. XX and YY presumably but Kliknik are Social Insects and Queen is the only fertile female. Chickens and reptile sexual determinations are different. Reptiles are expressed male or female depending on incubation temperature. I forget the avian dmrt mechanism but it deals with an O gene. Maybe its OW are female and WW are male. Sorry I never was a real avian fan. For ease of everything a simple XX/XY model could be used. Attributes Changed by Breeding: Ham: Increased Ham by 10% Color: A few basic color codes assuming basic genetics R(red), B(black), A(normal) and a(albino). Phenotype expressions to come. Speed: +10 terrain for mounts. Attack Change in attack speed or Damage Size: Stunt growth command that allows pets to be halted at certain levels with statistics that reflect their current CL. Interdependencies Architect: The structures have to be made. Made from wood. Droid Engineer: Possibly for the Milk Maid Droid and Egg Collector Droid. The alternative could be each pen area having a terminal for collecting from each individual pen. Ranger: Deleted the Box Trap. Still would like to see the option to allow a Ranger have permission to /cullherd and harvest the bodies. Doctor: Removed the disease program. It appeared as if it would be bothersome to contact a doctor to heal pets. Bio Engineer: BE could sample reducing each animals Vitality by 5 each sample. Could still have a check system in place where a check of anything over the current vitality kills the creature. An animal has 85/100 vitality and the check is 89 the creature dies. This would give CH a greater niche and better rapport with BE. What I mean to say is the ease by which the BE can sample and the need for CH to hunt for what the BE needs makes Taming a necessity again. Putting wild tames to be sampled in a pen at the same time holding the necessary BE pets for combat seems a decent tradeoff to me. That is 1-20 samples each creature.
CH’s want this to be a visual structure, something where things can be displayed and not some extension of a data pad. It is my understanding; we also want a way to make an access fee (in playing devil’s advocate I am almost certain this will require the Artisan Business I Skill). Kennel Facility A specialized vendor that could train pets up to the ability of the current owner. Unusable if CH is dropped. Another aspect brought up would be getting some more useful commands brought in. Would love to discuss this further. Fetch, Dance, Drag, others that we have seen in Verts Making Pet Commands Useful thread. (thanks jopenack this provides another angle that allows for CH Niche). Also note that this would be a great way to implement saddlebags for storage. Or train Tortons to carry shield generators. New Tailor clothes Taming clothes such as chaps. (still trying to get these for you spreadsheet). Editors Note: I want to thank everyone who has contributed thus far and those who will in the near future. This started as a bunch of loose ideas. I merely put them together. I want to keep working on this as much as possible. New ideas are welcome. I credit all CH for making this possible. The credit is not mine to take. If I have forgotten an idea you have mentioned or not weaved it in yet please mention it again. I get scatterbrained at times. There aren't many changes from V.2 to V.3 but I do believe the ones placed inside are positive ones. Some made it way less complicated.
Not against broad changes, just profession specific ones (read as CH) that go against what we've been told in the past. (I hired Trayson as a ghost writer for a good tagline)
Wallach1
Community Guide
Posts: 1210
Registered: 06-16-2004
Server: Intrepid
Very good and well thought Pluto. But, ya think we could sorta add the dung to it, we could sell it as fertilizer that can be combined to flora and possibly give it a chance of raising it's stats?
(I'm kidding cause this is a bit rediculus, just wanted a reason to say DUNG.)
Message Edited by Wallach1 on 10-01-200401:50 PM
"A taste at the least would indicate to us that they are doing more than blowing sunshine up our skirts." --in indication on not hearing about the combat rebalance.
"Yes, my spelling and grammer sucks, but I never claimed to be an English Major."
Anyway let me digest this Pluto and then I will post some thoughts
....and then no matter how hard we get nerfed, we still keep CH because we are still some of the coolest characters on the game.
BOYCOTTING JUMP TO LIGHTSPEED UNTIL COMBAT BALANCE AND GCW REVAMP! SWG: Quote: Grand moff Tarkin: The Jedi are extinct, their fire has gone out of the universe. you my friend are all thats left of their religon. Except for the other 5000 over there...
SOund good but you left out what i personally thought where the most interesting parts of the Corral Idea. Having harvesting bots to gather stuff like milk and eggs. We could for those who want the option be turned into sort of farmers if we so deemed. Buying certain droids or modules that allow for milking and egg picking. As an insentive the stats could be slightly higher. Like they could add a code that makes the milk farmed +25 to everystat. Also why not breeding pets to gather meat, the meat would be of exceptional quanity and quality seeing how it take about a week for 1 grown pet to mature. No lets just say these modules could be used only in the corral which take MCH to achieve. This could add a viable nitch to our profession for those of us who just want to take it easy from killing stuff all the time.
Message Edited by RoboFish on 10-01-200410:59 PM
In-game name is Kahless! Master Nerf Herder If you avoid the truthe, you pay for your lies. A lie always does the most harm to the person who tells it. ~ Karen Moline, "Belladonna" R.I.P Tivo Tenook and SkyPreacher1 who went out fighting the good fight for CH's everywhere Beast meetings on Radient at 4pm EST
Not against broad changes, just profession specific ones (read as CH) that go against what we've been told in the past. (I hired Trayson as a ghost writer for a good tagline)
Absolutley love this idea. The massive input from the community is great too. The only real hinderance I can see to its implementation, is how much database space would it take up? Is it feasable for them to make this work?
hell, that's a great plan! i've been for this for awhile now, and i don't know why the devs haven't done anything about it. i'd be happy with just a small corral to store/display pets or mounts for sale.
Is breeding success set at 1? Programming wise I assume that is easier, but I would definitely like to see that fluctuate. For example, what if min food requirements were 1 unit/pet/day, but up to 5 units/pet/day. This way, just as in real life, quantity of food on hand would become a determinant of breeding success.
Secondly, you mention kliks and other social insects. Are these breedable? I don't think its appropriate. Lets say insects and other social breeders are not included.
Thirdly, I like the breeding duration being dependant upon CL, but it would be more realistic for it to be dependant upon model size, which is in fact what we find in the "real" world. I mean, humba, bracks, and other large low CL "grazers" should take a considerably long time to breed, as opposed to Durni's which should take a day or so.
I think I have some more thoughts, but I'll read it over again first.
Great job Pluto!
Chroniculous VanBrinks
Master Creature Handler/Master Rifleman/Tracker
Hunter For Hire! Contact in Game or on Forums
Trying to level CH quickly? Geo Caves Got You Down? Try This
i just thought of somethin.....hypothetically, what if the devs decided to finally impliment a corral with some kind of function besides display....for the function, what if you could make it so that once stored in the corral, your pets could get a boost (permanent or time based on how long they were stored in the corral) in HAM and/or stats depending on the quality of the food and shelter provided. in other words, the longer you own a pet, the more valuable it becomes with the boosted HAM/resists. this would encourage or even give an incentive for CH's to hang on to and become attached to their pets. just a thought that could make CH a little more enriching....
lookin good pluto as many here im gonna absorb what I read lol
hmm just wondeering on first glance in the breeding section has anyone given thought to having babies deeded? for sale in the bazaa.... might be nice although maybe in the past version there was a reason not to do it. just kinda wondering
I'l see if I can break down the special command stuff into a more detailed post than in the ver 2.
oh and thanks for the plug hehe but ideas are easy putting it all together is the hard stuff, u da man
and they say theres no leaders here hehe joking please dont flame figured we needed the laugh :-))
Really good ideas. I really like the idea for involving other professions. Seems like a good way to work hand in hand with BE. Two things, though. Just wondering.
- Maintenence seems high - one corral would cost 172,800 credits every 30 days. One would need to be selling alot of pets to make it a profitable venture.
- Breeding is a fun idea but is it practical (from a business stand point)? Why breed two grauls or any CH pet? Would a CH buy the resulting baby graul when they could breed their own? Or go out and tame their own? For many CH, taming is one of the things they enjoy most. One of the issues with BE now is that it takes away from the purpose of taming. Why tame when you can buy a better pet? Breeding asks the question, why tame when you can grow the exact same pet?
Really great post and ideas... definitely a lot to consider.
Off hand, my two initial concerns are:
(1) Do the maintenance requirements make this too much of a hardcore thing? Over the last year I've known many crafter types who came to lament the need for daily logins to check the harvesters, check the factories, check the vendors, check the E-Mail. It ended up turning into a "second job" rather than a game, which tends to be a speedy road to burnout.
While the micromangement definitely appeals to a group of people, is this casual-friendly enough for the amount of development assets that would be required to design and implement it?
(2) What impact would this have on the meta-game of hunting down and taming creatures in the wild (i.e. the "taming" game). I see there you have built-in safeguards to protect CL 50+ creatures (i.e. the powerful "ultra rares"). But I remember the search for even low and mid-level pets with unusual properties was once a hallmark of the CH experience... and something that I'd like to see come back.
Granted, you do have to get a pair of wild hilltop kimas if you want to start breeding them. But if a player down the street is already running a hilltop kima ranch (with better, stronger, easier to get kimas)... don't we again have the Tamer vs. BE situation? Except now it's Tamer vs. BE vs. Rancher?
Wallach1
Community Guide
Posts: 1210
Registered: 06-16-2004
Server: Intrepid
Vertexon wrote:
Really great post and ideas... definitely a lot to consider.
Off hand, my two initial concerns are:
(1) Do the maintenance requirements make this too much of a hardcore thing? Over the last year I've known many crafter types who came to lament the need for daily logins to check the harvesters, check the factories, check the vendors, check the E-Mail. It ended up turning into a "second job" rather than a game, which tends to be a speedy road to burnout.
While the micromangement definitely appeals to a group of people, is this casual-friendly enough for the amount of development assets that would be required to design and implement it?
(2) What impact would this have on the meta-game of hunting down and taming creatures in the wild (i.e. the "taming" game). I see there you have built-in safeguards to protect CL 50+ creatures (i.e. the powerful "ultra rares"). But I remember the search for even low and mid-level pets with unusual properties was once a hallmark of the CH experience... and something that I'd like to see come back.
Granted, you do have to get a pair of wild hilltop kimas if you want to start breeding them. But if a player down the street is already running a hilltop kima ranch (with better, stronger, easier to get kimas)... don't we again have the Tamer vs. BE situation? Except now it's Tamer vs. BE vs. Rancher?
Ya know, I was looking at that too Vert, cause I know for a fact, it was a thrill when I was looking for my Grand Wrix and my GSP. Perhaps a ferocity level indicator could be added to this. Example. If you take a dog from a pet store and raise it and such, it is less likely to attack if treated well. You take a tiger cub, raise it well, treat it nice, there is still a chance for it to react to the call of the wild.
Also, i could be based on the frequency rates that they are in the wild. A wasteland cu pa is common enough to get multiple babies, but finding the lair to begin with is a task upon itself.
Just an idea.
"A taste at the least would indicate to us that they are doing more than blowing sunshine up our skirts." --in indication on not hearing about the combat rebalance.
"Yes, my spelling and grammer sucks, but I never claimed to be an English Major."
I hope that someday our pets will have homes and give us the ability to proudly display and take care of our pets.
I have been designing a zoo for Galactica city and this would be much better because the pets are not just standing like statues. I think this would appeal very much to dedicated master ch who regularly play and wouldnt mind the extra time needed to do this.
I think we would still be different then bio engineers because of the fact that we are raising the creatures. Not just sampling them and putting them together but these pets we would have to raise and take care otherwise they would not survive. I also like how you have to have 2 identical creatures but think the cl being allowed to breed should be anything below lvl 70. Why should the ultra rare pets be excluded from this and because you system requires 2 identical creatures with perfect vitality it will keep the standards of pet rarity. Also if the pets are limited as to how often they can reproduce such as a pair of Bull Rancors may only have 2 children that would also ensure their rarity. We cant have Bull Rancors breeding like wabits
Let me address maintenance first. It has always been an arbitrary number. The addition of a non-commercial switch allows for this to simple be a storage facility with no other function.
A quick side note. We have not started to form any arbitrary numbers for egg laying or milking. What is the average cost of the uber milk or eggs per server? I don't use them and when I do sell these items it is always 3cpu.
With that in mind, there is more to this than breeding and selling pets. There is the DNA aspect which if doing DNA makes breeding null and void until you get 100% vitality creatures back in the pens. There is the /cullherd and assigning a value or statistical bonus to Rangers that I forgot to mention.
Dabudo thanks for doing the math (173K/month). In a non-comm corral thats 86.5K. I really have not made an attempt to reason out that this is some get rich quick scheme for CH or apply each individual servers economic needs to this model.
So lets apply the DNA model to this standard and a BE help by placing an arbitrary number on sampling rights on creatures. Obviously to max this out 240 total CL is no more than 22 pets CL10. 6 CL40 the average samples would be 10 so that 60 samples from 6 CL40 creatures. Can some assign a value for no agro? The right creatures with the right stats? This sets the tone of this.
The kennel auto trainer could have its own set price per command. I have left a lot of this open for interpretation. CH's setting their own values and servers will set the tone as well. Again if it is realistically too high then we can reduce it. In many ways it would be simpler to replace it with N, 2N, 3N, 4N.
OK. That is the monetary issue addressed. I will try to address the other concerns Sunday or Monday. Keep adding to this though. I am out of town Saturday. Sunday will be the Race on Bria, I hope to make Radiant in avatar at least. If I did not answer things sufficiently this time rephrase the question for me. Keep the question coming by any means, as I said this is not my idea this is a CH idea. Each and every one of you have built it. I get caught offguard at times because I feel the questions are aimed at me. So I must footnote that I do not have all the answers because I did not have all the ideas. In the end, we can make it work.
I will be keeping this version on my priority list. I want it to work. Version V.4 next month if we can keep the dialogue going and we have sufficient things needing to be changed. Thanks for the comments so far.
Not against broad changes, just profession specific ones (read as CH) that go against what we've been told in the past. (I hired Trayson as a ghost writer for a good tagline)
In reference to Vert's concerns, I was also a bit worried about time investments, but the inclusion of an on-off switch appears sufficient.
On the other hand I do not think the corale will interfere with the taming experience due to relatively low numbers of CH, low capacity of corale at even the highest level, and a large base of creatures to breed. At the highest level, the corale could only breed 7 species (you would need to leave space for the newborns? unless there is some special temporary newborn container). Considering there are not that many of us and that we are not on all day, one could expect to find the species they were looking for on rare occasions. Additionally, there will always be those good ones you have to go find your self, no matter what.
Chroniculous VanBrinks
Master Creature Handler/Master Rifleman/Tracker
Hunter For Hire! Contact in Game or on Forums
Trying to level CH quickly? Geo Caves Got You Down? Try This
I want to address the issues of Tamers taming. It seems to me there is relative ease of finding a pet better than any extinct/rare out there (Edit:I mean to say BE make better pets and are available on vendors). That has not stopped true Tamers up to this point. Tamers will always tame. It is in their blood.
I wish I could say that everyone will get their rare that way. I am sure some will not. Even now some have been gifted their rares through other players (not a judgement just a fact). There is nothing stopping it now. And only each individual CH's spirit will tell if he would rather buy one or hunt for it. I don't buy art nor would I personally buy a rare because it is now rare.
I have been an amatuer herpetologist for years. Addressing the issues of rares. The market for exotic snakes such as albino versions becomes chaotic when a new albino strain pops up in a species that never had that strain before. When I bought my first albino burmese they were 1K a piece. So the theory that rares will stay rare is somewhat misleading. Someone will see they sale for 4mil and breed them. Once they are breeding they will also lower in price. This does raise a valid concern about keeeping rares rare.
The availibilty of uncommons and such seems trivial to me. Uncommon to me, means they should be found in a week or so with steady hunting. The issue of rares may be a different matter entirely. But the reward of taming is a reward in itself. It is and always will be an ego reward, except where the market dictates that 4mil is a good profit for selling your rare.
Feel free to comment. That is just how P9M sees it.
Message Edited by Pluto9Moon on 10-03-200406:45 PM
Not against broad changes, just profession specific ones (read as CH) that go against what we've been told in the past. (I hired Trayson as a ghost writer for a good tagline)
Very interesting. My problem with the corral idea in the past wasn't because it was a bad idea (quite the contrary -- I think it's pretty neat), but because as I read the idea I was eyeballing about a billion hours of development effort. Having a artwork already in game certainly does cut some of the development time I'd imagine.
I do like the interdependencies (Architects build the stables and so on), but I think some of that does complicate things as several skills, skill trees, schematics, etc. would have to be touched. I am not saying they should be removed from the proposal, but I don't think we're going to see the Devs commit to doing it anytime in the near future. Along those lines though, once JTL comes out, I would *love* for the Devs to divulge what they have in mind for the next 6 months or so. We know about the combat rebalance, but after that, what's next?
With all the interdependencies, this proposal does appear to add value to more professions than just CH, which is a good thing. The "quick fix" to the "storage issue" would just be to bump up the number of stored pets in our datapad, but this corral is a much better way of handling it long term.
Pluto9Moon wrote: I want to address the issues of Tamers taming. It seems to me there is relative ease of finding a pet better than any extinct/rare out there (Edit:I mean to say BE make better pets and are available on vendors). That has not stopped true Tamers up to this point. Tamers will always tame. It is in their blood.
I don't dispute that, but Taming used to be an activity with more widespread appeal (not just among the diehards). It's part of what makes the Creature Handler profession unique and engaging. Perhaps its an unfortunate aspect of human nature, but many people will take the shortest road to a reward even if it's a more boring or more frustrating road. In this case, I think that's leading some people not to realize what they're missing.
Which is definitely not to say that pet selling doesn't have its place (because it does). I'm just not sure if this particular proposal strikes enough of a balance to reach a happier medium than we currently see in-game.
Eggs and Milk: I caught this was left out after I posted it. This part needs work. These will need a stat bonus to make it workable, or the rate of production will have to be high enough to make it feasible, or some combination of both.
Ranger Bonus: I don't think stat bonuses work here. Simply because one Ranger would have to know many CH to get any kind of stack worthy enough to sell. The best thing possible is a decent harvest bonus like 20% to make it work. That way anything harvested may stack with what the Ranger is hunting already.
Tstorm: I really flipped when I saw this structure in the Hero Quest. It is East of Mos Eisley if I recall correctly. Take a trip to go see it. Of course if the inner house art is fixed in place then there may be problems because it is stacked with furnishings. It has a larger footprint and most likely we will be told it requires 7-9 lots if we want it. This answered a Niche question for some. CH now have something they could do, a reason to tame, and a way to make some cash.
Not against broad changes, just profession specific ones (read as CH) that go against what we've been told in the past. (I hired Trayson as a ghost writer for a good tagline)
In keeping with the idea of the forum, do you have a middle road in mind or some model with which to go by? The CL limits (imho) keep the rate of reproduction reduced. 6-7 creatures at max CL and Max Vitality could never be more than 3 breeding pairs of CL40. That hits the CL240 limit (without leaving room for the babies itself). Meaning that if a hardcore route was used there could only be 2 breeding pair CL40.
I do worry, as I have drawn out in my real life reptile breeding experience, that in breeding rareness one does see a flood in the market and a change in the economy. I am sure there is some rare tag internally, so that being said if rares were not included will it maintain any viability for CH?
Not against broad changes, just profession specific ones (read as CH) that go against what we've been told in the past. (I hired Trayson as a ghost writer for a good tagline)
I'm not sure what middle of the road I'd envision here. The idea of pet breeding is very cool and has certainly been popular in some other games. But in SWG it would be adding a third "pet faucet" to a system where the two existing faucets are already in direct conflict (namely wild and BE).
Personally I've always wanted to a see a differentiation where Wild and BE pets would be "different but not better" than each other. The special attack plague strike is a good example. It makes the mantigrue screecher valuable in a way that doesn't rely on just tanking ability.
Introducing a "pet breeding" system does basically add a third chair to the table, even if the skills themselves are contained in the CH profession. It's a more crafty playstyle that isn't going to be every CH's cup of tea, so I have reservations about it supplanting the adventure-oriented aspects of the profession.
Not against broad changes, just profession specific ones (read as CH) that go against what we've been told in the past. (I hired Trayson as a ghost writer for a good tagline)
